---
title: "Responsible Capitalism | Tiina Landau | Negotiator 52"
titleOriginal: "Vastuullinen kapitalismi | Tiina Landau | Neuvottelija 52"
episodeNumber: "52"
guest: "Tiina Landau"
datePublished: 2020-12-12
duration: "44:18"
youtube: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY"
originalLanguage: "fi"
topics: ["investing_markets","ownership_capital_tax","leadership_governance"]
subtitleMethod: "none"
provenance: "Owner page assembled from YouTube metadata, the neuvottelija.fi episode record and the publisher's own chapter marks, translated one for one. The marks are genuine: twenty-four of them, with gaps from 37 to nearly 300 seconds, tracking the recording rather than a grid. No transcript is published here — the channel has no English caption track for this episode and the Finnish one is YouTube's automatic track. The guest is a practitioner in responsible investing and is promoting her own book on the subject; the companies criticised by name, including Maersk and Stora Enso, are not represented. Nothing here is investment advice, and the EU taxonomy is described as it stood in December 2020. This episode makes the opposite case to EP91 of the same programme, which is worth reading alongside it."
fiCanonical: "https://www.neuvottelija.fi/fi/episodes/58-vastuullinen-kapitalismi-tiina-landau-neuvottelija-52"
canonical: https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/episodes/ep52-vastuullinen-kapitalismi-tiina-landau/
---
# Responsible Capitalism | Tiina Landau | Negotiator 52

English subtitles are not available on this page. This is an episode summary, not a curated transcript.

## Chapters

- [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=0s) Highlights: Friedman, and the lesson of Covid
- [00:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=37s) Tiina Landau, practitioner and author
- [01:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=95s) Maersk, KLP and shipbreaking in India
- [04:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=263s) Friedman: does classical economics forbid responsibility
- [05:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=334s) Which comes first, return or impact
- [07:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=438s) What E, S and G mean
- [09:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=563s) The responsible acquisition, and deals that collapsed
- [11:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=700s) Exclusion, and black lists
- [12:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=776s) Picking the champion produces excess return
- [13:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=838s) Activists: Jana Partners, Apple and screen time
- [15:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=904s) How large institutions exert influence by asking
- [16:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=1010s) FSC, PEFC and the power of environmental organisations
- [18:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=1137s) Stora Enso and the Chinese pulp mill
- [20:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=1259s) Risk management, or impact
- [23:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=1391s) Sparkmind, and measuring impact
- [26:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=1594s) Green bonds, and impact classifications
- [29:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=1755s) The EU sustainability taxonomy, and a six-hundred-page report
- [30:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=1848s) The auditor, and responsibility reporting
- [31:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=1909s) Are small companies' resources enough
- [35:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=2159s) Is this greenwashing
- [37:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=2241s) The private investor's tools: MSCI and Morningstar
- [39:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=2397s) Covid: responsible funds performed better
- [42:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=2528s) Black swans and green swans
- [43:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY&t=2626s) Thanks, and the book in the show notes

## Summary

Tiina Landau, co-author of a book on earning excess returns through responsibility, unpacks the mechanics of responsible investing from a practitioner's standpoint. The episode opens by correcting Milton Friedman — he never said profit should be made at any cost — and moves on to Maersk's Indian shipbreaking beaches, where Norway's KLP did not sell but stayed to engage. It covers the three letters of ESG and how their order came about, the toolkit of influence from exclusion to activist funds, Stora Enso's Chinese pulp mill as a genuinely contested case, green bonds and the EU taxonomy — and Landau's daily question: is responsibility risk management or impact?

## Selling ends the conversation

The KLP case is the best argument in the episode and it cuts against the instinct most investors have. Divesting from a company whose practice you object to removes your objection from the register along with your money. Staying in and pressing is slower, less legible and the only route that can change anything.

## Two questions in one vocabulary

Is a responsibility policy managing risk to the portfolio, or changing the world? Both are defensible and they lead to different holdings. Landau's insistence on asking it daily is the practitioner's version of the conceptual objection EP91's guest makes from the outside.

## What Friedman actually said

Not profit at any cost. The misquotation is load-bearing in a great deal of the argument about corporate responsibility, and it is worth noting that both this episode and EP91, which disagree about nearly everything else, begin by correcting it.


## Watch

The recording lives on the Neuvottelija channel: [Vastuullinen kapitalismi | Tiina Landau | Neuvottelija 52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wx0b9L2wY).
A Finnish edition of this episode is published at [www.neuvottelija.fi](https://www.neuvottelija.fi/fi/episodes/58-vastuullinen-kapitalismi-tiina-landau-neuvottelija-52).

## In depth

The Neuvottelija AI editions carry a long-form write-up of this episode:
[English](https://www.neuvottelija.com/ai/ep52-vastuullinen-kapitalismi-tiina-landau/) · [suomeksi](https://www.neuvottelija.fi/economy/ep52-vastuullinen-kapitalismi-tiina-landau/).

---

Cite as: Sami Miettinen, Neuvottelija — Responsible Capitalism | Tiina Landau | Negotiator 52, https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/episodes/ep52-vastuullinen-kapitalismi-tiina-landau/, 2020-12-12. For quotes include episode 52 and timestamp.