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Yes, it's a Senate hearing and it is a culmination of years of investigation and I think things had

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been the news had already been tightening around Fauci I would say for the last couple of months

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but now just in the days before the hearing there was a trans of documents including Fouch's

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own diaries from the pandemic era which I think made it impossible for him to testify

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without perjurying himself. So that is uh that I see is the main cause of this dramatic turn of

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events. So yes, Fauci Took the Fifth over 100 times to every question

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by the Senate. We have Jari Kuikanmäki who has published a very topical book Origins of

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Corona virus and uh we discussed that uh in the US Senate Anthony Fauci in the middle of

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the covid pandemic was writing diaries and Rand Paul got hold of it and published it and it's very

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uh it's criminating against him and uh it also ties up very nicely with or a freshly tied book.

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I'm not quite sure whether he's uh Anthony Fouchi is a bad guy or just a egoistic uh bit player, but

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uh Jari Kuikanmäki, please introduce yourself and uh also your book. So I'm a journalist, a podcaster

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uh with some background in the Finnish national television also and now an author. And yes,

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for a true crime author, it's always nice when the cover character of your book pleads the fifth over

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100 times couple of weeks after your book comes out to print. So, so yeah, it is uh it has been

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very dramatic couple of weeks now. uh and you have studied in the London and um like rightly

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you you said you have been in the Finnish product television you have by the way also interviewed

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me there when in the Alfa television so that was very nice there's still something about the

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linear television even though the channels like us uh taking the market share oh yeah it has

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its own energy when you're doing it live and yeah definitely this topic uh I'm a little bit doubting

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the Finnish media is interviewing you the prime same time live television to discuss the mistakes

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we made during all those corona virus covid-19 years. It it somehow is is just like a it's a

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gray area in our history and the linear media didn't handle it well. The politicians didn't

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handle it well and there was lots of coverups. So you said this is a is it's a detective story.

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So this tells about uh how excuse my friends how [ __ ] up everything was on those times. Yes. But

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let let's start in the in the first topic origins of the corona virus. So was it some crazy bad wet

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market stuff or was it a lab leak? So yeah it is as you said this is a procedure like a detective

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story. So I just start from the kind of first day I heard of the virus in January 2020 and

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then then take the reader through the process of how we uh discovered all this evidence. Um and in

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the process it also became not just a question of where the virus came from but also as the

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subtitle says it's about the uh cover up of the century also. So not only where did it come from,

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but how has it taken so long that we are only now 6 years later learning all the sorted details of

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of what to but I have to insist I guess the crime scene is one China but wet market lap league

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uh it's it's not it's not a wet market I can I can spoil that much now as as my

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um informed opinion having investigated the matter for a for a number of years. So

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uh to use this kind of uh legal uh terminology, I would say that it is beyond a reasonable doubt

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that the origin of the virus is research related. It is not a natural zunotic jump. But I let the

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readers look at the evidence and draw their own conclusions. And we have Anthony Fouchy

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in the middle of it and on his diaries he's also juggling with these two balls and but

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then he for some crazy reason decides with the US authorities and global authorities world health

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organization that let's go for this wet market story and for a brief period of time it was also

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uh forbidden to talk about lab leak and what is what is really shocking um of the new Fouchy diary

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uh revelations is that we are learning now the timeline that Fouchi in his own private uh diaries

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already concluded in January 2020 that the market is not the origin. So and then after that he

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started putting together those uh research papers or the teams who would write all basically all of

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our um essential uh scientific peer-reviewed papers starting with the proximal origin of

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sarskov 2 um to promote this wet marketer which f himself uh did not believe. Yeah. And then there's

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this fascinating uh scene Wuhan China and America. I mean we have a books like a chi uh China America

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or uh they're kind of this two-headed um beast China and USA working together but it's still

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mindbgggles in this kind of bioweapon research how how did the two countries cooperate? Yeah.

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Yeah. It it is it is crazy like uh the truth is really stranger than fiction that if you had tried

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to pitch me this this story a couple of years ago I wouldn't have believed a word of it that

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it just cannot be true. Mhm. Uh but all all the evidences kept pointing to these very troubling

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um collaborations in Wuhan that involved uh both uh the Chinese side, the American side,

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international scientists from different countries, but also crucially uh the militaries of both both

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from the Chinese side, PLA and the Academy of U Military Medical Sciences and also Pentagon

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from the US side and various other agencies. is uh involved um in this uh uh I mean you depends

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who you ask what do you want to call it some talk about gain of function research others just

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say that that's like a shorthand for basically bioweapons research or biod defense research of of

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that kind but the end result is the creation of uh dangerous pathogens in the laboratories in Wuhan

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and and the potential cure for them as less they say We're just studying for a cure. And and I mean

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there may be some tr there may be some truth to that notion as well. But then the question becomes

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that is are the risks worth the rewards? And the this was in fact the gain of function debate that

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was already going on in the early 2010s with the uh publication of Ron Fushier's uh paper on

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the aven flu. And that already sparked the gain of function debate back then because that study which

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was done in Netherlands already received funding from Fouch's uh nei and that chain of events then

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led to the gain of function moratorum a ban on federal funding of certain kinds of dangerous

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gain of function research which then led partially to the outsourcing of such research into places

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like Wuhan, China. Yeah. You mentioned Neide and then there's a US A then you have Anthony Foundry

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in the capacity of the US government. Yes. And and and like but he he's like he's connected to

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these organizations. Yes. So, so he is the uh he he was the longest uh serving director of the NIAD

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which is the infectious diseases and allergies um institution uh under the NIH which is the national

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institute of health which is the broader umbrella uh consisting of many of these uh agencies and uh

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so Fouch has been there a long time since the 1980s but really In this capacity, his

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um uh role grew and Neit's role grew significantly after the 9/11 and the Andrax letter attacks and

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that's when when the biod defense boom really started the budgets uh became huge and there was

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a proliferation of these kinds of labs and this kind of research and then we had the first SARS

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epidemic soon after and so that's the that's the kind of background. So he has really been

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uh this kind of uh zar of this kind of civilian biod defense. Uh so it's seemingly civilian.

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It sounds very you know almost boring some like allergy and things like that but in reality it has

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uh it has deep uh military connections and biod defense connections. Yeah. And then there's

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the totalitarian aspect of it which the all the governments jumped with the glee and um I aided

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by world health organization. I remember vividly at the time uh we are recording this in Finland,

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but uh we took the very strict line with Christ uh guaranteeing the the biggest um area usima in now

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now we can say needlessly at the same time in the uh Sweden we had this technel who was proposing

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kind of a what looked to me then like a reckless society individual freedoms let's not use overly

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use guarantees is let's take the death toll of the older people which is inevitable in the beginning

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but then it it will smoothen out and it uh the public line was that that was totally reckless

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and uh the kind of the totalitarian response taken by every other country in the world China,

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USA, Finland was that um strict guarantees uh mandatory vaccinations u we even had this um

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vaccination pass I remember going to Norway and they wouldn't let me in if I hadn't had the two uh

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uh vaccination shots. And and then then of course China continued that long after everybody else

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had quit and uh gone to the Swedish line and uh they really used this total isolation and

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uh like a totalitarian uh checking and uh like uh doing all the log logistics. So that uh and

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uh that was fascinating and uh it it had its backslash as well. So there was something good

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coming from that but it looked on the hindsight like completely overblown. Yes we have of of

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course I guess primarily we have the of course the death toll from the pandemic uh tens of millions

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of uh lives lost and counting all the illness that came with it but also all these secondary

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effects of the lockdowns and uh uh economic effects effects on civil liberties uh uh all all

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in all so all these ripple effects are are still happening what I would say of those early months

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um of the pandemic that uh like now looking through all the uh documents, all the evidence,

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it does still some people uh insist that there was this very like great plan in place and there

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were some plans in place in in in terms of how how the governments and the intergovernmental

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organizations react. But there was also uh lots of chaos. So that it was quite improvised

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for many parts and all these internal documents also show it. Uh part of the reason of that may

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be also that the pathogen in question the sarskov 2 is quite special in its properties. So whatever

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plans they had in place uh epidemiological models for example uh turned out to be wrong

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for reasons that people at the time most people at the time could not have known. M but then you also

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recovered we discussed that um there was logged in um reports from Wuhan and uh which were locked

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in the medical database which were matching the virus uh uh blueprint quite nicely and had those

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been used fully we would have probably had had a much better response using the data but that

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for some reason it was put under embargo and only several years later released and you had a bit of

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a uh Twitter or ex discussion around that. Yes. So that so that is actually one of the big questions

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when we talk about a cover up is that who were involved, when were they involved. So that now we

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know uh for example on the origins investigation we have now whistleblowers coming forward from

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like agencies like CIA and saying that oh we already knew in the agency let's say around

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2021 or some agencies maybe later in 2020 that oh probably we are looking at a at a research related

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um origin but we still have quite a bit of opacity in those early days and weeks and and months that

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when did they really know and would that have made a difference and I I think it's some it's

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somewhat quite disturbing uh some of the evidence looking at that both people in China and also some

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of the international researchers might have known about this already in 2019. Yeah. But then we had

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the stuff like um is it airborne and this whole mask craze everybody was wearing the masks and it

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looks to that uh had we correctly used the already mapped genetic properties of the virus we would

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have got a pretty good grasp that maybe it's not airborne maybe this is the most def efficient way

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to handle it and uh maybe in the background that data was transferred to Mona and who developed the

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eronai vaccine and and so on but look like uh policy response was completely random many for

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years. Yes. And absolutely if if one looks at the kind of research that was being conducted

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in Wuhan. So had there been transparency there uh that response would have been different. We would

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have understood the properties of the virus the furing cleavage site how it operates and so so

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that it's very uh optimized to infect humans. In fact, it is uh uh it infects humans better

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than any other uh mammals, better better than bats, which is a very unusual to say the at

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least for this kind of supposed zunotic jump. So, it came like straight out the gates, it was

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ready to infect humans and and uh be airborne. And many would say that it was designed for

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uh those properties. But then uh if there was this red herring of the of the crazy bats and

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uh so it sounded a bit like the ids come came from apes who some gay people were [ __ ] Excuse my uh

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crude language here, but it sounded like a let's let's let's let's invent this crazy theory about

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bats and the wet market and uh how did that became like the truth? M so so essentially

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uh the the first cluster or this kind of first known cluster of uh early COVID cases was uh

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traced and located on the Huan seafood market in central uh Wuhan in uh around middle December or

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so 2019 and then the wet market was uh closed disinfected in early January 2020. 20 and then

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it sort of uh went from there. But it seems very probable now with the evidence we know that there

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was a cover up in the in the Chinese side in terms of the uh virus sequences of those early index

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uh patients that uh we now know with quite good confidence that the patient zero of the pandemic

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was not in that marketplace. So that the virus came into that marketplace earlier, the spread

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started earlier but uh it became um dominant due to actions of also people like Anthony Fauci

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in the west as well as the CCP and that local uh cover up response. So I think it was a cover story

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from the beginning but then not not everybody who who uh was proposing it were necessarily in on the

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cover up but like they were I think uh misled Mhm. by What about the I mean B zero are any of the

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Chinese people in the original lab alive and did you get hold of the Chinese sources for your book?

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Uh no, there's there would be there would be very little point in uh trying to uh contact them,

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but we we do have some uh their retelling of of some of the events. uh US intelligence uh has

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uh um at least uh suggested they haven't proven that uh some of the early uh clusters of patients

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with symptoms consistent with COVID 19 would have been working inside the Wuhan Institute

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of Viology, but that has not been verified. Um but yeah, we we do have some uh uh interesting

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stories from some of the people inside and it it all uh those tend to be very inconsistent when

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you start looking at the gaps of the stories from people like Xiang Lee for example from the Wuhan

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Institute of Viology who was the main collaborator with with organizations like Ecoalth Alliance

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and and uh Ralph Barrick from University of North Carolina and then the US site. Um so their stories

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really do not add up but then again um under the circumstances they they may not be at liberty to

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to say what they know. Then there was also the uh case of uh Zoen the uh vaccine developer, the

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first person to file a uh Sarskov to um vaccine patent in China and uh he died uh somewhere around

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May June 2020 and that has never been disclosed. uh many people would suggest that it happened

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under suspicious circumstances let's say. M yeah and um this uh official institutions I mean all

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these health organizations working uh and um what about the is is the world health organization

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did you did is was that part of the loop or they just took the lead of the US institutions? Yeah,

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unfortunately the World Health Organization is swayed uh quite uh powerfully by the two big

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players that are now most uh tangled in the Wuhan research that being the United States and China.

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So for example, one of the uh one of the ways in which the the WH origin investigation started

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going wrong very early on was the nomination of uh the president of the Ecoalth Alliance,

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Peter Dac into their origin investigation team, the international team that arrived in Wuhan in

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January uh 2021 and who basically ly say that oh there's no reason to investigate this lab leak

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theory further when in fact uh Peter Dac would be among the prime suspects uh had it been uh a lab

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leak in Wuhan. He was deeply involved in both the virus collection programs uh among them uh

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also the closest known relative virus of SARS COV 2 called RATG13 which was uh announced uh around

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February 2020. So that that virus was uh collected from a copper mine in Eunan and then brought to

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uh Wuhan over a 1500 kilometer distance. So that's like a 4-hour flight by plane uh with US taxpayer

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money by people like uh Peter Dac and Xiang Lee. Uh furthermore, Peter Dasac was also involved with

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the Pentagon in the DARPA diffuse proposal which was leaked then in 2021 which included the genetic

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engineering of these viruses in Wuhan with the US military money and it was very very detailed

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proposal of inserting the furing cleavage sites into the backbones of these viruses. And then

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then behold uh 2 years after such a proposal was written then a virus with a unique furing cleavage

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site emerges right next to the laboratories in which they plan to do exactly that. Uh I read

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a book about DARPA when the uh the electric cars and uh self-driving cars were being developed and

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I got a good wipes of the DARPA organization but when you combine DARPA with diffuse I mean maybe

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that's something less less nice uh is that like one of the key key players yeah I think uh the

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what what DARPA said then when the diffuse leaked it was leaked by a whistle blower inside Mm. DARPA

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in the autumn of 2021, Major Murphy leaked it. Uh so so that in itself is a cover up because

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that of course DARPA had been holding on to that proposal with very incriminating details about

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the kind of research that was planned in Wuhan and they had been holding on it for for the first year

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and a half into the pandemic into the original investigation. So that means that DARPA and other

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US federal agencies and other branches of military in some capacity and intelligence agencies were to

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some extent involved in this cover up of this crucial evidence. Now whether uh because DARPA

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did not then fund the proposal they said that it is too risky but they knew about the plans. Uh so

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so what exactly is is DARPA's uh complicity in it uh is still uh unknown but those uh the diffuse

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proposal outlines in disturbing detail the kind of direction that the virus research was going in

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Wuhan. And it is possible uh some would say even probable that perhaps elements of the Chinese

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military for example the academ of military medical sciences took some of those elements

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some of those ideas and then went ahead Mhm. and and tried it. Yeah. Then about the the virus so

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so it has some pedigree on this lab developments and the earlier viruses and like you said it's

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uh remarkably well adjusted for human population. But the good thing was it wasn't very lethal. So

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I had one guest uh Thomas Malin who compared it to the Spanish flu 100 years earlier and that was

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more deadlier but it it the waves get milder quite quickly. Yes that that is true. So if if it has

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this super prop property, it is the infectivity and and combined with the fact that the symptoms

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uh the patients can be asytomatic for a longer period which which gives it the

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pandemic potential. Like if you compare it to the first charge virus which was way more deadlier

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uh but then it had the luckily it had the property that the uh let's say the viral

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um shedding took place at a much later stage of the when the symptoms had already appeared. So

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you could you could actually quarantines actually worked and they they were able to uh it was around

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what did they have 8,000 something like that m uh SARS cases uh the first one and then compared with

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the billions we we now had with this one but it's true that the lethality is luckily much

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lower. Yeah. Now that we know or at least strongly suspect it's it's all lab engineered even without

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proper AI artificial intelligence one thinks that it would be just a matter of relatively

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simple tinkering to increase the lethality and uh just keep the other nice properties of spreading

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uh intact and that would be a much harder case because we have excuse my friends [ __ ] up the

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system because uh now nobody believes believes the system anymore. M yes it it yes it is a very

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very disturbing scenario that what we now saw with the sarskov 2 that it might have just been like a

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uh kind of like a exercise run for something something much worse in the future and that's

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also why we I think as a society we have to take this for example this gain of function

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uh research risks now very seriously and and also all the advances in the synthetic biology ology

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and now combine that with the AI. So that that can be a really existential question for all mankind.

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Is there there were all kinds of varants and uh it it kind of uh the timeline I guess is like roughly

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in the by the end of 2019 to was it 2022 in my mind kind of a is hazy on these things but uh

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by the uh end of 2021 there was already a milder variance but there was like a was it Omicron or

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Delta. Delta was the bit more nasty variant and then the last kind of a smooth variant was Omicron

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which kind of smooth it it nicely nicely out of the population. Yes. But uh was there something

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to be learned on those like variants which came after the first um 19 and was some of those like

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engineered by man-made uh efforts? there there has been some there has been some interesting

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theories. Uh so that that's the thing with um with some of these laboratory techniques and

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the synthetic uh viology is that you can really get into these rabbit holes and that's part of

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the uh kind of paranoia also that we can see also from the literature both on the US side and the

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Chinese side on the biod defense that already uh like in the early 2000s they were very aware of

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the fact that it It may become very difficult to detect whether or not a virus has been somehow

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tampered with in a laboratory or not and some perpetrator uh by intention or just by accident.

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It could be let's say uh research related or vaccine development related uh leak. So some

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some variant could come out and we wouldn't even necessarily know uh whether whether or not it's of

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of natural or origin or not. But I I suppose I'm not an epidemiologist but I suppose that those

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uh later variants uh behaved somewhat somewhat as might be expected in in terms of of becoming uh

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milder. And then I guess the vaccination itself I remember there was like a Russian vac vaccination

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and the Chinese vaccination and then there was the Astroenica one and then there was the modern RNA

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um which was the like the real breakthrough and I remember thinking like lucky me my mother got

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this Astrazenica crap but I got this cool RNA uh modern uh modern like a crisper technology and I

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I felt good about that. But uh any any reflections on on those vaccines or were the sideshow or their

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development? Uh you mentioned that some Chinese guy patented the early version. Maybe that was

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blueprint for the Chinese vaccination. Yeah. So so that's the that's the kind of double-edged

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sword with this whole whole uh vaccine research. So there are some this quite disturbing timelines

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of the vaccine R&D um in terms of that. So, Yusen's case was one. Uh, just uh days ago,

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we had those Fouchy emails uh released and in what or his diaries released rather. And

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in one of them, he was uh very disturbed to have learned in around June 2020 of a Chinese research

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paper that was describing the use of humanized A2 mice. And the problem with the paper was was that

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the mice were in the paper 30 week old. And you know, Fouchi kind of he can do basic arithmetic.

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And then he started like checking that wait a minute why did the uh Chinese start breeding these

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mice in like late summer, early autumn of 2019. It's quite a disturbing question. Yeah. Uh so so

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uh yeah there there could be those kinds of uh those kinds of uh connections uh as well as some

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very um troubling uh questions of incentives in the in the risks of these kinds of research. So if

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you have say vaccine R&D development that is risky and may cause a pandemic and then then that same

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industry profits if a pandemic takes place then that's you know that's not a very good incentive

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structure even if you know nobody intended it to be that way. Yeah. Now because of this we get all

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kinds of u dry runs or test cases and of course millions tens of millions of people died and

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uh it's it's all tragic and um it's very hard to kind of find the bad guys and even

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Fouchy he strikes me as a kind of egoistic guy who enjoys being in the limelight and

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uh just being the being the mastermind and uh and the source of truth in this middle of the

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global thing and everybody looks up to him but uh It's still kind of my mind is still a little bit

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uh not made on that. Was he just a bit of a fool or evil? Yeah, I start my start my book with the

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epic. I might read it out loud. I I actually I selected this already uh when I started writing

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it. And it goes like this. There are no secrets about the world of nature. There are secrets

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about the thoughts and intentions of men. And the source of the quote is uh the father of the atomic

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bomb J. Robert Oenheimer. Mhm. And I think when writing this book that was a recurring thought in

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my mind like trying to understand that what were these people thinking who is the who is the good

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guy here who is the bad guy and or is it like a areas of areas of gray. So I I think there's some

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quite uh there's some quite Shakespearean drama. I think high stakes you you can see the pressure

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that is put on people uh whether it's science administrators or or or these scientists and they

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have to make these judgment calls. Um in terms of Fouchy though I I I am starting to lean in the you

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know more in the in the villain category. um some of his actions. He was uh not only was he aware

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that the wet market is not the origin, but that the emails from him showed that he was actively

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uh involved in the in the cover up because he had uh funded the gain of function research in Wuhan

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starting in 2014 to with a grant to the ecoalth alliance and the emails show that he was already

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uh covering it up in in January um 2020. 20 and his diaries show him quite enjoying the

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public limelight and how important he is now and how everybody likes him. At the same time,

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he's doing this quite quite selfserving uh acts. Mhm. So, so one gets this very two-faced

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um portrait of of what his diary show and what the records show and then how he liked to be

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perceived in the in the public eye. Yeah. And it's remarkable how there was this global coordination

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with the World Health Organization and uh all the uh national entities but how kind of

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uh scaringly totalitarian each country reacted. Uh, for example, uh, like I mentioned in Sweden,

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I have a like a Finnish uh, friends who live in Sweden and I was like wondering because the

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Finnish narrative was that they completely crazy and irresponsible and technist evil guy who lets

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Swedish die and they just sacrificing for human lives for the economic alter of people being able

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to have a dinners in the in the social settings. cuz I said like can't can't you guys see and then

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we had like a the Finnish reality was was leftwing government with the Christa Koru and DHL the our

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health organization kind of having half-hearted debate where sort of once you should wear masks

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and uh then it wasn't quite clear and we should definitely guarantee and nobody should go to

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restaurants and uh let's just go to the full total tourism and uh just know oh I'm I'm a little bit

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exeaggerating but let's go the full vaccination cards and uh restrictions on the on the travel

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and uh international movements. And then we had the US situation where you have like a Trump in

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power and Fouch is still keeping through every government and then the Democrats coming over and

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they flipping the positions on these masks and the guarantines from one state to another. But for in

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each country there was the was the local truth and people were very scarily obedient to that truth.

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and and the truth in each different country were just isolated installations. So it was fascination

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and nobody has done like a postmortem on like a on these crazy times what we could learn from

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this kind of mass psychosis. Yes. Yes. I think it is one of these things we would all like to

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think that we are these uh in individuals and we think for ourselves and we are not swayed

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by by these kind of primal emotions or or mass psychology but you know that clearly is not not

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true. So yeah and and it was not like a I mean like I said China took it much longer than all

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the rest. So I was wondering when it was like a clear that it's over and you shouldn't guarantee

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and they were still continuing on and it looked like they wanted to go to the full end of the

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social experiment of can we control the people in in like in good totalitarian fashion and I

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think there there was there was some disturbing convergence between the Chinese model and and even

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some western countries that we pride ourselves in in in the civil liberties and these kinds of

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things. But in in in some respects there was some bit too much resemblance, let's say. Yeah. And I

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remember Spotify banging COVID 19. So he mentioned that the then the uh the episode didn't spread and

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uh there was YouTube also cancelling and then all the social medias were like at like like we

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mentioned at some point it was illegal to um talk about lap league. Yes. Yes. They or illegal but it

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was de facto social media death. Yeah. the like Facebook who even went to the lengths of banning

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uh mentioning the idea that the virus may be engineered so they would just remove that content

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and they they said so uh but this is this is just this like re reinvention uh reinventing or trying

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to reinvent the wheel of the the basic concept of the freedom of speech and the dangers of

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uh this kind of uh presensorship whether it's done directly by government or somebody who is kind of

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doing the bidding of the government. But it seems that we ne never learned the basic lesson why it

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is so dangerous that uh uh who who tells the fact checkers the facts. So uh that's why we we have to

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make sure that we we don't repeat that mistake. Yeah. And then there was a social media remember

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Brett Weinstein and uh Joe Rogan doing this. was it Ivormecting or some other like a horse

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uh animal health drug and that was probably just a complete [ __ ] uh sort of dead end as well and

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uh at the same time the RNA vaccinations probably worked and they were the best science at the time

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and the science was kind of settled on that and it was logical to follow the that part of the

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official track and taking the vaccinations and then trying to sort of minimize So your chances

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of uh uh catching the infection, but then again looks like the it may mainly hit older people over

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70 years old and uh then you get the long co and all kinds of other effects from the vaccination

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that guarantees mental health uh problems. So I mean um truth is the best disinfectant but I don't

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know when you nobody knows what the truth is then will the completely free speech and crazy theories

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be the right way but I guess at least you get the ideas in some probability out and then it's up to

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you to make the judgment what what is the truth. Yeah, I mean we we we've tried to model that the

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government tells what the truth is and we know that that's not a good that is not a good model

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and I also that there is this very detrimental effect uh to the trust in science trust in public

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health authorities now but and and that is I think we would need to go to the root causes of what

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what is what is causing that that for example if we have like public health authorities like

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uh like Anthony Fouchy who are this uh you know two-faced people then no wonder that people lose

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the trust even when the advice is the correct one but how how would how would normal people

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know when are the authorities lying when are they telling the truth so that that that will

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be one of these um ripple effects also of this whole origins cover up debacle that we we will

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now have a a generation of people who who will not trust the public health authorities. Yeah.

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Now for uh good or mostly worse, we have done the crying the wolf test and the the we have

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tried the sort of trust the government and it didn't look good. So let's say if somebody now

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does the more lethal and true dangerous variant of COVID 21 or whatever [ __ ] it is called then it's

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u then uh we have screwed the system like uh then even if the government or the science is

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settled in the next time around then people have a very different trust reaction to the government

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uh guidance. Yes. Yes. And I think that that has been one of these uh maybe one of the motivations

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for these kind of cover-ups going as long as they have that that people have kind of justified uh

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this kind of noble lie. Mhm. that you know let's try to keep the mistakes uh out of sight so that

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people would not lose the trust and also people's favorite politicians have picked one side and uh

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like I said I mean people change the sides so like republicans were thinking one way and uh then when

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they were opposition they were thinking other way so they were not not like a consistent line that

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um only democrats wore masks and they were idiots and and so on and the same thing in Finland,

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nobody wants to do postmortem because we had this lovely left-wing government who was just doing the

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their best and nobody wants to remember all the mistakes which were made because it's embarrassing

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and their favorite politicians would look bad and so there's a also media is having a lot of trouble

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with on this because there was a lot of articles written on very much certainty that this is the

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truth and this is what you must do and this is these are the right people and if you don't agree

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100% present you an idiot and dangerous and probably some right-wing lunatic. Yes. Yes. I

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mean undoubtedly this was uh among the worst media failures of you know at least at least my lifetime

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but you know we we will have this ahead of us. We have to come face to face with with what happened.

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For example, in Finland, we still have no uh official investigation or even interest in the in

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the origin question, for example, and many other uh pandemic era policies. Mhm. But you know that

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is unsustainable like sooner or later we have to come you know face to face with the facts. Yeah.

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Um and people had a such a strong economics and they were like really I had a lot lot of friends

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who were absolutely 100% economists that this is the way to do and I remember myself doing episodes

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throughout the bad uh pandemic and I had str uh struggled I actually had very few masked episodes

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but I just had a bigger distance between me and the guests on that but I mean a lot of people were

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really really paranoid on on on what to and what to say and uh and also I I as a sort of podcaster

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and a YouTuber but emerging publisher I was really worried all the time that I might get cancelled

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and lose the whole platform. So that was a really silencing effect. Yeah. Chilling effect. Chilling

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effect. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. No, I'm even even myself like I I didn't start out on this journey

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with like very like uh hard set uh like a set of convictions that I already knew from early

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on that oh this is how it is or or something. I was definitely wrong about things along the way

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and and had had to really like revise my world view. M uh I took the scientists at their word

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uh say early 2020 when they said that oh this is uh this cannot be uh uh research related that we

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have we have ruled it out. I looked at okay here's prestigious scientists saying this they seem to be

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you know wearing white lab coats and like they have decrees and like who am I to who am I to

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disagree? M so so yeah I I think one one has to kind of be be able to revise their convictions

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if the evidence somewhere else. What was your vaccination history? Like I said I get two two

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more than a shots but yeah I I I I got I got my vaccines as well. I don't know was it a good idea.

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I haven't really like Yeah, but I remember like I I tried to get into like the favorable place in

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the queue because it's a was kind of a honorable thing to do it early and so on. And then I think I

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got twice uh the COVID. So I at least got the same Yeah, I got two recorded uh uh uh sort of uh tests

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that said that I had still had the COVID. So and uh but both were mild varants. So I skipped the

384
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:08,400
delta. So I get the omic chrome which was nothing. So it was just a bit of a flu. M but yeah I don't

385
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:17,040
know like uh there is this like uh one shouldn't also get all this like contrarian um worldviews

386
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:23,520
as like a set. The same it's the same as with this like very conformist worldview that you just

387
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:28,880
believe everything you read in the paper. Sure. But but then there's the kind of the the opposite

388
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:34,240
or the corerary of that is is not necessarily the way way to go either that you know not not every

389
00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:40,320
conspiracy theory is true even if some are. Yeah. But it was hard time. I remember I took

390
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:48,160
uh our kid from the school illegally uh one week early just because it was clear it's spreading and

391
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:54,720
uh the system wasn't guaranteeing. So I took the liberty of uh going against the rules in that way.

392
00:47:54,720 --> 00:48:00,800
in that judgment that end but then in the other end then I was just thinking starting to think

393
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:07,920
that this is this is like looks like the maybe the technal was more right than I thought and

394
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:13,280
uh then then I was on that end of the things and uh started thinking that this this is like stupid

395
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:19,760
that we we are so strongly always believing the authorities like in the beginning of it was like

396
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:25,040
no no no everybody goes to school and no uh you shouldn't do anything individual ually unless

397
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:31,120
you are absolutely told what to do and uh you should be wearing masks or not wearing mask and

398
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:38,720
whatever and uh and taking the shots and uh and not traveling and uh taking your record in the in

399
00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:45,520
the pan uh European uh vaccination uh database so you can travel to Norway and uh it's it was crazy

400
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:50,960
times but now most of my friends who were really fanatic one way or other I had some friends who

401
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:56,640
were also in the in the kind of this is this is crazy and we should you shouldn't vaccinate at all

402
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:05,280
and uh everybody should just um get the natural immunity and and like almost like willingly get

403
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:10,080
the virus and that's the way to get it through. So, but nobody now nobody wants to talk about

404
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:16,240
that and and just everybody feels just a little bit ashamed about it. Yeah. And I I suppose also

405
00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:21,920
like uh just like exhausted and tired about it. So there's there is this thing that it it was

406
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:28,880
very like extraordinary at time then I suppose like many people just don't want want to think

407
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:36,160
about it too much or you know it's there there is this kind of weariness that that comes in and and

408
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:43,200
I think that's also eventually we have to though we have to get like a historical record straight

409
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:50,320
of you know what what really happened. Yeah. And uh surely you have some wisdom what we can learn

410
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:59,520
from this. Now it's scary to think that uh if if and uh when this was man-made and lab generated

411
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:06,560
maybe for noble purposes of just trying to find a preventive cure for this awful viruses which had

412
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:14,560
been deadly in the earlier uh manifestations. Now we have AI. We have a completely different global

413
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:22,320
coordination. I mean US and USA and China are no longer friends. Europeans don't trust Americans.

414
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:29,920
All the trust is lost in the a lot of the trust is lost in the official uh institutions. But we

415
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:39,120
have a super powerful artificial intelligence. So what now? It's scary times. Uh definitely we

416
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:47,680
should try to implement if we can some kind of uh proliferation ban in in the in the similar

417
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:53,360
sense as with nuclear weapons earlier. I mean we have the bioweapons treaty but it it's seems

418
00:50:53,360 --> 00:51:02,160
it's very outdated. It's from the 70s uh banning the development of of biological weapons but it's

419
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:10,320
so full of loopholes that in in practice uh it it's not very well enforced and I think that we

420
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:17,360
we would need to get all all sides to understand that what are the risks for everybody here and

421
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:25,440
uh try to work out some kind of a solution that we would uh stop uh dangerous gain of function

422
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:32,720
research. Uh there was just announcement from US that they're they're putting um more of a federal

423
00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:39,440
ban there on the certain kinds of uh dangerous gain of function research because the risks of

424
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:46,960
it clearly outweigh the benefits. So I think that that whole doctrine that that for example Fouchen

425
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:55,120
and NI were were proposing in the early 2010s that just is wrong. So that the that that would

426
00:51:55,120 --> 00:52:03,760
be in in every one's benefit. Now whether whether those uh superpowers can see face to face and and

427
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:11,280
figure that out, I don't know. And and then throw the AI in the mix. So it it is very precarious

428
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:18,880
times we're living in, I'm afraid. Yeah. And uh with war and uh international conflict still in

429
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:30,480
the agenda. I mean if you look on the Ukrainian uh Russian fight we are past the terminator aids

430
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:39,120
I I think so we we seeing self-guided weapons and uh drones in in particular and uh Ukraine has been

431
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:46,240
sort of developed remarkable uh drone capability where they're now burning the uh the uh Russian uh

432
00:52:46,240 --> 00:52:54,000
uh department store stoages and uh and the uh oil infrastructure and uh and then I think they are

433
00:52:54,000 --> 00:53:00,240
now moving in the this year in the ground troops where the uh the artificial intelligence will do

434
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:08,640
the killing. So now you would think uh if you're Russia or something like that uh well if you have

435
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:16,240
a low morals anyway why not go this way. So it I I think unfortunately this is um this is still a

436
00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:23,360
kind of the game theory problem where where the global aband is doesn't look like a very likely

437
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:28,960
solution. Yes. And also I think the biological weapons have very particular problems like the

438
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:35,200
attribution that for example you may not know who the attacker is and that that makes all these

439
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:42,640
game theories quite quite difficult. Yeah. And uh then on the other hand the artificial intelligence

440
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:49,600
I use it super heavily myself. So I think it it's this kind of the game theory problem that

441
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:58,880
uh if USA and Europe um slows down then uh China will just keep going. So there's no point kind of

442
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:08,400
stopping because um you just um take yourself out of the game. M and uh uh we now seeing with the

443
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:15,440
closed models like uh anthropic and um open AI that the US government was kind of toying with

444
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:22,000
the idea let's only give the Americans this best models and it failed and now there seems to be a

445
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:28,480
consortium that u we should have the open-source models more available so we you can just sort

446
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:36,000
of regulate the paid models and uh and if you are going open source then it's by definition

447
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:44,240
auditable so but it's powerful so I think we have the same [ __ ] here I mean you can you can do the

448
00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:51,760
biological research and on the closed circles but I don't know if that's good idea so yeah I

449
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:59,200
don't remember who said it was it Peter Teal or it might have been him that he he said that you

450
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:04,240
know sometimes when he you know when he doesn't know how to you solve a problem at least he will

451
00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:09,440
try to talk about the problem that you know that's a maybe it's a bit like this crutch but like that

452
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:16,080
that's maybe something that where we can you know even if we don't have the answers that we we kind

453
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:21,120
of start thinking about that you know what what could the solutions be and what are the right

454
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:30,400
questions to ask and the right right problems to f focus on maybe about the book so this is uh

455
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:38,240
English language uh book uh available in Amazon in in the hard um yeah paperback paperback and

456
00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:44,480
Kindle versions uh on Amazon's worldwide. So it's origins of corona virus wuhan the secret

457
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:50,400
research that sparked the pandemic and the cover up of the century and I have all the it's based

458
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:58,640
on like um bit over 400 sources there also on the book website all all linked so our interview with

459
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:08,080
Anthony Fouch you know that I think he he will be pleading the fifth from from now on. Yeah.

460
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:13,600
Uh but yeah so uh so so everything in the book is you know it's not some you know opinion book

461
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:24,560
everything is uh you know fact can be checked and uh I'm I'm quite optimistic that you know whatever

462
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:30,800
uh open questions remain after after having researched this couple of years and you know it's

463
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:37,200
it's like a remarkable group of people all around the world who have been on this for for years and

464
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:44,320
I chronicle some of their achievements here as well. But uh you know I'm I'm quite uh confident

465
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:50,640
that we will solve this that whatever the open questions are they will be we will get the

466
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:57,280
answers. Yeah, I think this is now Anthony Fouchy leading the fifth. I mean, we won't get too much

467
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:03,920
information from him, I guess, because he's just stonewalling, but this is um feels like a kind of

468
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:09,840
a political fight in the USA because um it kind of gives bit of a breathing room from the Republicans

469
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:17,680
from the Iran fiasco and uh and then uh uh although there there is like there is bipartisan

470
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:24,240
support on the on the origin question. So that it's not so much it's maybe leaning more on the

471
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:31,760
Republican side, but it's it's not as bipartisan of an issue as as many others are. But yes,

472
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:38,000
def definitely this is like a earthquake moment when when Fouchi led the fifth and there would

473
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:46,240
be so many avenues uh where this uh investigation would be going if the DOJ started it. There has

474
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:55,120
already been for example uh Fouch's uh advisor Dr. David Morren he was indicted and arrested on May

475
00:57:55,120 --> 00:58:03,440
on uh conspiracy charges as well as destruction concealment of federal records. It's also in the

476
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:10,320
I I already covered uh his misdeeds in the book before that before that happened. So that was kind

477
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:19,920
of gratifying to see the or hear about the SWAT in at his door. Uh so uh Ralph Barrick's research

478
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:27,520
also he he announced sudden retirement in in May and he is in federal department process as well

479
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:32,800
uh related to these things. So even though Fouchy is not speaking that doesn't mean that you know an

480
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:41,040
investigation is not going forward. there's a very very many directions that it would now take. Yeah,

481
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:47,280
it's good point that it's kind of a shared by both aisles and uh it's not so it's a

482
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:52,240
in a disturbing way it's a little bit like a Epstein like everybody both parties had like

483
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:59,680
a people benefiting from from that network and uh now we have the kind of the Fouchy standing

484
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:06,080
decades in the in the system and being in the Trump administration and uh Biden administration

485
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:13,360
and it's just a sort of a constant everywhere. So I we'll see but it's looks like a it's American

486
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:20,800
theater and uh I think it will um develop and hope hopefully uncover lots of uncomfortable truths.

487
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:27,520
Yes. Yes. And I mean of course one must say that uh like Americans even though they have been now

488
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:34,320
in kind of a a bad light in due to these voucher revelations they have still been one could say

489
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:40,160
the most transparent in terms of trying to get to the bottom of this. So, so we get this kind

490
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:47,040
of spotlight effect that you know China has done worse things but they don't have such transparency

491
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:53,760
going on there. So that's the that's the good side of the American system that they still have some

492
00:59:53,760 --> 01:00:00,880
semblance of of uh like a democratic o oversight over this and and I would say that it's almost

493
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:06,400
like more of this permanent bureaucracy of or what you know President Dwight D. Eisenhower called the

494
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:12,720
military-industrial complex. So that once you build these budgets and these institutions and

495
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:18,880
this kind of permanent bureaucracy and the kind of scientific technological elite as he called them,

496
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:23,600
it kind of takes a life on its own and I think that's that's what has happened with with some

497
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:28,800
of this biod defense stuff and now it now it's a question that whether the whether

498
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:40,080
the uh political system the democratic system can can somehow uh tame it get it get it under over

499
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:46,640
uh some some you know oversight again. Yeah. And um we'll see we are recording this in English. I

500
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:52,240
I do every now and then um English episodes. But uh if I get the international non-Finnish audience

501
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:57,600
in particular of Fins, I mean would be good if you could comment on the your recollections from those

502
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:03,040
strange times when uh were you part of the you were always cheering for the official line and

503
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:08,080
uh and what was your thinking and have you changed the thinking or is this just you

504
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:14,640
want to what what's what's your feel on this? I would appreciate if the there would be a lively

505
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:20,720
debate on this and on the international uh basis as well. Yes. And yeah, go go buy the book on it's

506
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:28,320
on Amazon. It's a it's a thrilling read and uh you know it really reads like a detective story. So,

507
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:35,440
and uh one uh of our uh sort of um popular guests here, Mati Van, is apparently working with you on

508
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:40,720
the Finnish translation as Yes, Mati helped edit this one and and we have the Finnish translation

509
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:45,600
in the works as well. Yeah. So, we'll might do this again. And maybe we'll invite Mati as

510
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:51,920
well to to discuss the this because he he's been publishing also other other interesting books on

511
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:59,760
like the path where the he discussed the sort of political polarization how how how that happened

512
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:06,080
in Finland and then he was also discussing the climate change and uh it's it's I think it's

513
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:13,360
good to have this overton window like um there might be one objective truth but uh for sure if

514
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:19,600
you a very narrow overton wing window in the in the society where you're only allowed to speak

515
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:26,880
about the perceived official truth. That's that's always a bad idea and we see time and topic and

516
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:33,680
generally after another that it's a bad idea to lock in to with too much certainty in one official

517
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:42,160
launch. Yes. And uh but I I think judging from your book u there's some untold stories here but

518
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:50,480
uh uh we can say categorically no to the uh wet uh market biological story and yes to the laplik

519
01:02:50,480 --> 01:03:01,680
and the and the sort of grandio uh coverups and uh nefro u actions and uh incompetence. I guess those

520
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:06,320
are the themes. you know, go go read the book and check the evidence. Like I'm I'm not even

521
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:12,400
I'm I'm really like happy for for people to having their own own theories and own own view owns on it

522
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:17,520
like just because it's like based based on the evidence. So I'm not really even that interested

523
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:25,520
in sort of convincing anybody of anything that it's very evidence first and uh so thank you

524
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:32,960
Yari Maki. I guess you you hang on to in the X on Twitter mostly and you have your own podcast as

525
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:40,240
well. Yes. Uh so you can find me on social media x.com/yaragamaki. I have a website for the book

526
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:50,480
also yarwagamaki.com/ origins and then we have the vidasalta podcast with the u on YouTube. Yeah is

527
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:57,680
great. he has been here with me uh talking about various topics and uh it's it's translate 50 state

528
01:03:57,680 --> 01:04:03,840
that's like the that's the political theories and that so actually because you you you studied in

529
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:10,400
London in um was it London school of economics and um yes yes I did my masters there as well and then

530
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:18,880
um undergraduate in in Helsinki yeah so uh I think I have this thing um inside episode so I learned

531
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:27,440
you had also studied uh uh uh Ronald Kors and uh this is very topical about the AI economy because

532
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:34,240
um he he's one of the great minds of the theory of the firm and uh it's fascinating that we have

533
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:43,040
the hierarchical entities called firms or limited liability companies where you use the uh you you

534
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:50,480
have the you have bosses and subordinates and tasks and the reason for that accord According

535
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:57,040
one theory is that because the transactional costs are uh very low inside the organization because

536
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:03,440
you have the the bosses have right to boss around the employees and uh they have the obligary duty

537
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:08,560
to work because they get the salary. Now the artificial intelligence is breaking that and

538
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:15,920
uh I think we we could go to the the inside episode to discuss how will AI reshape the

539
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:22,640
uh modern corporation and uh androidization of humans and uh corporations and uh artificial

540
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:29,440
intelligence. Uh I think uh let's do that. Thank you uh Yikamaki and like you said

541
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:35,440
uh by the book. Oh, thank you. Great being here. See you in the inside episode. uh area. Thanks,