---
title: "Sales has something to say | Kert Kenner | Negotiator 345"
titleOriginal: "Kert Kenner | Myynnillä on asiaa | Neuvottelija 345"
episodeNumber: "345"
guest: "Kert Kenner"
datePublished: 2025-08-08
duration: "51:22"
youtube: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI"
captionsVtt: https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/episodes/ep345-myynnilla-on-asiaa-kert-kenner/captions.en.vtt
captionsSrt: https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/episodes/ep345-myynnilla-on-asiaa-kert-kenner/captions.en.srt
originalLanguage: "fi"
topics: ["negotiation","saas_software","ai_enterprise_tech"]
subtitleMethod: "none"
provenance: "Owner page assembled from the published Finnish YouTube caption track, YouTube metadata and the neuvottelija.fi episode record. Chapter timecodes are taken from the captions; no caption files are published with this page. Recorded the same morning as Myynnillä on asiaa #8, which covers the sister subject."
fiCanonical: "https://www.neuvottelija.fi/fi/episodes/695-kert-kenner-myynnilla-on-asiaa-neuvottelija-345"
canonical: https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/episodes/ep345-myynnilla-on-asiaa-kert-kenner/
---
# Sales has something to say | Kert Kenner | Negotiator 345

## Chapters

- [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=0s) Guns N' Roses, a Tesla and the twin recording
- [02:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=121s) Tallinn to Finland, and 24 years in sales
- [04:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=242s) Going solo with a podcast, and how much a host should talk
- [06:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=363s) One funnel: marketing, sales, negotiation, account management
- [08:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=483s) The magnet, and where the agreement snaps shut
- [10:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=606s) Sales tech from the banker's side: Liidu and Profinder
- [12:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=726s) What Bezos said about what stays the same
- [14:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=846s) Scripted three-touch outreach and the wall it hits
- [16:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=967s) Multi-channel means giving the customer a choice
- [18:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=1088s) Inbound, outbound, and the false dichotomy
- [20:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=1208s) The parasocial relationship a podcast builds
- [22:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=1329s) Ninety-five per cent decided online
- [24:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=1450s) Two hours fifteen a day, and whether to believe it
- [26:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=1570s) Dinosaurs, disruption and an agent army
- [28:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=1691s) Choosing a CRM as a strategic decision
- [30:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=1811s) The butler agent, and the security problem
- [32:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=1932s) AI cold calls, and meeting-note etiquette
- [34:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=2054s) Why adoption alone never delivers
- [36:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=2175s) Speaking, leading and negotiating are learned by accident
- [38:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=2296s) VALKEA, and having a goal for the conversation
- [40:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=2417s) AIDA when nobody knows who you are
- [42:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=2538s) Communities, live events and why people still gather
- [44:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=2658s) Value selling versus the price conversation
- [46:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=2778s) Churn, price ladders and the transactional threat
- [48:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI&t=2899s) Why free is the worst price

## Summary

The Neuvottelija half of a twin recording made with Kert Kenner's Myynnillä on asiaa podcast the same morning. Sales trainer Kenner and Miettinen map marketing, sales and negotiation onto a single funnel — with Miettinen's magnet as the new metaphor for the moment agreement snaps shut — then work through inbound versus outbound, the parasocial relationship a podcast builds, what AI agents are already doing to sales work, and why free is the worst price of all.

## What is discussed

- **A twin recording.** Miettinen came from Kenner's studio the same morning; the MOA episode covers why companies should build their own media, this one covers sales and negotiation. Both recommend listening to the pair.
- **Kenner's background.** Born in Tallinn, moved to Finland at eleven, twenty-four years developing sales — twenty as a partner in a larger training company, the last four on his own — and now working with large brands and speaking on modern selling.
- **One funnel, four stages.** Miettinen's visual: a wide marketing mouth pulling people in from the universe of the unaware, sales qualifying inside the trap, negotiation where the magnet snaps, and then account management, upselling and the risk of the customer swimming back out.
- **The magnet.** Invented on air in the sister episode and used throughout: a positive magnet on the deal side, a repelling one on the customer's, and the negotiator's job is to close the distance until it snaps.
- **Sales tech from the other side.** Translink sold Liidu to SalesManago — a synergistic Nordic-to-Central-Europe deal — and Profinder to the listed media group Ilkka.
- **Bezos, not Einstein.** Kenner's favourite reframe: rather than asking what will change, ask what will stay the same. His answer is the human contact, which he expects to become a competitive advantage precisely because AI makes it scarce.
- **Why scripted outreach stopped working.** The three-message AI sequence is now recognisable on sight, arrives through several channels at once, and has left people numb — which is why an actual phone call from someone you know still lands.
- **Multi-channel is about the customer's preference.** One buyer configures a car online and pays by card; another wants to kick the tyres and talk to the dealer. The job is to offer both, not to pick one.
- **Inbound and outbound together.** Kenner rejects the popular line that outbound is the shortcut and inbound only produces splinters — but concedes that badly targeted content produces the wrong enquiries, which is a targeting problem rather than an argument against content.
- **Parasocial selling.** Ten episodes is enough to form a relationship. When the need arrives, the buyer contacts the person they have been listening to on their run, not the stranger — and much of the B2B decision is made online before any contact.
- **AI in practice.** HubSpot's figure of 2h15 saved per day per salesperson is one Kenner does not fully believe, because adoption in the field remains low — but agents already write the meeting memos while some salespeople still two-finger type them.
- **Where the disruption comes from.** Not from the large brands, which cannot easily cut thousands of people and will resist to the end, but from the one-person firm running an army of agents behind it. Kenner accepts that this may eventually include sales trainers.
- **CRM as a strategic choice.** Dynamics, Pipedrive, HubSpot and Salesforce are the four he meets, and the choice now matters because the AI is built into them; Miettinen wants a personal butler agent across all his interfaces and names the security risk as the reason to prefer the slower large vendors.
- **Adoption is not the benefit.** The pattern across 24 years: *once we get HubSpot, once we get Salesforce, once we get AI* — followed by a hangover, because the concept, the model and the answer to Simon Sinek's *why* were never built.
- **Three things learned by accident.** Speaking, leading and negotiating are picked up at random in workplaces, and it shows — which is why they should be turned into explicit models. Kenner's own is VALKEA: preparation, opening, presence, position-taking, progress.
- **Have a goal for the conversation.** Every negotiation has a before, during and after, and the most common failure Kenner sees is a salesperson dropping into a chair and asking whether the customer had something in mind.
- **Closing, correctly understood.** *Always be closing* is not one magic moment but closing each stage and interim objective — and establishing trust is itself a closing step.
- **Live still matters.** Neither believes events are dead; people simply will not gather for free wine any more, only for something they take away — and Miettinen's own community, suggested by Ville Tolvanen, turned out to be easy to build and close to family.
- **The price conversation.** Finnish sellers still argue drill rotation speed rather than the hole, the picture on the wall or the feeling in the home. Kenner's counter-example: a client insisted price was all that mattered in his industry, and his offer document contained nothing else.
- **Free is the worst price.** Freemium teaches customers to be most critical of what they receive for nothing; a free consultant is worth the fee. Which is why service-led selling and key account managers are coming back into SaaS — AI-generated product-led conversion has become too thin, and buyers now threaten to build a transactional replacement rather than accept an escalating subscription.

## Watch

The recording lives on the Neuvottelija channel: [Kert Kenner | Myynnillä on asiaa | Neuvottelija 345](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzFupfKzDI).
A Finnish edition of this episode is published at [www.neuvottelija.fi](https://www.neuvottelija.fi/fi/episodes/695-kert-kenner-myynnilla-on-asiaa-neuvottelija-345).

---

Cite as: Sami Miettinen, Neuvottelija — Sales has something to say | Kert Kenner | Negotiator 345, https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/episodes/ep345-myynnilla-on-asiaa-kert-kenner/, 2025-08-08. For quotes include episode 345 and timestamp.