---
title: "NATO 5 per cent, SAK 0 per cent | Jarmo Lindberg, Ville Valkonen | Negotiator 340"
titleOriginal: "NATO 5 SAK 0 prosenttia | Jarmo Lindberg Ville Valkonen | Neuvottelija 340"
episodeNumber: "340"
guest: "Jarmo Lindberg, Ville Valkonen"
datePublished: 2025-06-22
duration: "01:03:22"
youtube: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzwvkIeJdl4"
originalLanguage: "fi"
topics: ["geopolitics","finnish_economy_policy"]
subtitleMethod: "none"
provenance: "Owner page assembled from YouTube metadata and the neuvottelija.fi episode record. No chapter marks are published here: the publisher's list advances on a constant 180-second grid rather than at topic changes, so republishing it would assert timestamps that do not hold. No transcript is published either — the channel has no English caption track for this episode and the Finnish one is YouTube's automatic track. Both guests are sitting MPs from a governing party."
fiCanonical: "https://www.neuvottelija.fi/fi/episodes/652-nato-5-sak-0-prosenttia-jarmo-lindberg-ville-valkonen-neuvot"
canonical: https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/episodes/ep340-nato-5-sak-0-lindberg-valkonen/
---
# NATO 5 per cent, SAK 0 per cent | Jarmo Lindberg, Ville Valkonen | Negotiator 340

English subtitles are not available on this page. This is an episode summary, not a curated transcript.

## Summary

MPs Jarmo Lindberg and Ville Valkonen work through what NATO's five per cent defence spending target actually contains and how it would be financed. The two halves belong to different disciplines: first defence — what the five per cent consists of, why drones do not replace fighters, what Finland's dispersed defence means and how the reserve is counted — and then financing, where a wealth tax proposal is judged insufficient in scale. Also covered: defence inflation, the EU's SAFE mechanism and Rearm Europe.

## What the five per cent contains

The useful half is definitional. Before the target is affordable or not, it has to be clear
what counts toward it — procurement, personnel, infrastructure, and whether a conscript
reserve can be included. Lindberg's correction on drones belongs here too: they do not
replace manned aircraft, and he commanded an air force.

## Defence inflation, and paying for it

An increase in the budget buys less capability than the headline implies, because the
prices in this market rise with the demand. On financing, the wealth tax proposal is
rejected on scale rather than on principle — hundreds of millions against a need counted
in billions.

## Note on the chapter list

The show notes advance on a constant 180-second grid rather than at topic changes, so no
chapters are published on this page.


## Watch

The recording lives on the Neuvottelija channel: [NATO 5 SAK 0 prosenttia | Jarmo Lindberg Ville Valkonen | Neuvottelija 340](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzwvkIeJdl4).
A Finnish edition of this episode is published at [www.neuvottelija.fi](https://www.neuvottelija.fi/fi/episodes/652-nato-5-sak-0-prosenttia-jarmo-lindberg-ville-valkonen-neuvot).

## In depth

The Neuvottelija AI editions carry a long-form write-up of this episode:
[English](https://www.neuvottelija.com/ai/ep340-nato-5-sak-0-lindberg-valkonen/) · [suomeksi](https://www.neuvottelija.fi/yhteiskunta/ep340-nato-5-sak-0-lindberg-valkonen/).

## Explore the ideas in depth

- [Negotiation Strategy, Leverage and Power: Reading the Counterparty You Actually Have](https://www.neuvottelija.com/guides/negotiation-strategy-leverage-and-power/): A negotiation guide from the co-author of Neuvotteluvalta — the sources of leverage, BATNA and anchoring in practice, using information asymmetry, breaking deadlocks, and what to do when the counterparty negotiates on power rather than consensus. Grounded in Neuvottelija conversations and two decades of negotiation writing.

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Cite as: Sami Miettinen, Neuvottelija — NATO 5 per cent, SAK 0 per cent | Jarmo Lindberg, Ville Valkonen | Negotiator 340, https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/episodes/ep340-nato-5-sak-0-lindberg-valkonen/, 2025-06-22. For quotes include episode 340 and timestamp.