--- title: "Trust | Martin-Mikael Lilius | Negotiator 160" titleOriginal: "Luottamus | Mikael Lilius | Neuvottelija 160" episodeNumber: "160" guest: "Martin-Mikael Lilius" datePublished: 2022-11-12 duration: "34:32" youtube: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYLIEJRtRFM" originalLanguage: "fi" topics: ["leadership_governance","negotiation"] subtitleMethod: "none" provenance: "Owner page assembled from YouTube metadata and the neuvottelija.fi episode record. No chapter marks are published here: the publisher's list holds only two marks, at 0:00 and 0:30, and the second one's own text quotes a timestamp of 34:32 — it is a split of the show-note text rather than a chapter list, so republishing it would assert timestamps that do not hold. No transcript is published either — the channel has no English caption track for this episode and the Finnish one is YouTube's automatic track. Two disclosures: the guest is Martin-Mikael Lilius and is NOT Mikael Lilius, the former chief executive of Fortum, although the channel's own title for the episode uses the shorter form; and part of the conversation compares the guest's framework with Uusi neuvotteluvalta, a book by the host of this programme." fiCanonical: "https://www.neuvottelija.fi/fi/episodes/228-luottamus-mikael-lilius-neuvottelija-160" canonical: https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/episodes/ep160-luottamus-mikael-lilius/ --- # Trust | Martin-Mikael Lilius | Negotiator 160 English subtitles are not available on this page. This is an episode summary, not a curated transcript. ## Summary Martin-Mikael Lilius has written a book about trust, knowledge and society, and shares a name with Fortum's former chief executive — a coincidence that has earned him both a good seat at a Draghi lecture and hate mail. The episode takes apart the three components of trust — ability, benevolence and integrity — and sets them against the trust-account idea from the host's own negotiation book. The discussion widens from childhood experience to the siloing of science, to polarisation in the United States, and to the genuinely awkward question of why China and Saudi Arabia outscore Finland in some trust surveys. It ends on banking as trust's limiting case, from Lehman Brothers to Basel and its unintended consequences. ## Three components, not one feeling Ability, benevolence and integrity are separable, and separating them is what makes the model usable. Someone who means well and cannot deliver has failed on one axis; someone competent who is not on your side has failed on another. Treating the result as a single verdict — trusted or not — throws away the information that tells you what to do next. ## Why the survey rankings are strange The observation that China and Saudi Arabia place above Finland in some trust measures is not a paradox once the question is read literally: a survey records what people are willing to state. The finding is about the instrument, and it is the most quotable moment in the episode. ## Banking as the extreme case A bank funded by deposits is solvent for as long as it is believed to be. That makes the post-2008 regulatory apparatus an attempt to legislate a belief, which is also why its unintended consequences were so hard to foresee. ## Watch The recording lives on the Neuvottelija channel: [Luottamus | Mikael Lilius | Neuvottelija 160](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYLIEJRtRFM). A Finnish edition of this episode is published at [www.neuvottelija.fi](https://www.neuvottelija.fi/fi/episodes/228-luottamus-mikael-lilius-neuvottelija-160). ## In depth The Neuvottelija AI editions carry a long-form write-up of this episode: [English](https://www.neuvottelija.com/ai/ep160-luottamus-mikael-lilius/) · [suomeksi](https://www.neuvottelija.fi/yhteiskunta/ep160-luottamus-mikael-lilius/). ## Explore the ideas in depth - [Negotiation Strategy, Leverage and Power: Reading the Counterparty You Actually Have](https://www.neuvottelija.com/guides/negotiation-strategy-leverage-and-power/): A negotiation guide from the co-author of Neuvotteluvalta — the sources of leverage, BATNA and anchoring in practice, using information asymmetry, breaking deadlocks, and what to do when the counterparty negotiates on power rather than consensus. Grounded in Neuvottelija conversations and two decades of negotiation writing. - [New Negotiation Power: The Definitive English Framework](https://www.neuvottelija.com/guides/new-negotiation-power-framework/): The authoritative English presentation of Sami Miettinen and Juhana Torkki's New Negotiation Power framework: Power, Analytics, Interaction and Principles; preparation, roles, team design, trust and long-term negotiation performance. --- Cite as: Sami Miettinen, Neuvottelija — Trust | Martin-Mikael Lilius | Negotiator 160, https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/episodes/ep160-luottamus-mikael-lilius/, 2022-11-12. For quotes include episode 160 and timestamp.