WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:05.120 Alright, welcome to the Neuvottelija channel. I have Veli-Matti Kurkela 2 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:09.200 as my guest. You came all the way from — is it Pyhäntä? 3 00:00:09.200 --> 00:00:11.960 No, I actually came from Oulu, even further north. 4 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:15.400 Ah, okay. Right. But don't you have several locations? So you're Salvos's 5 00:00:15.400 --> 00:00:18.119 CEO? Yes, yes. Well, in Pyhäntä 6 00:00:18.119 --> 00:00:21.800 we have our factory, but then we do have offices. We have them 7 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:24.359 a bit all around Finland. We have some of our administration in Kempele. 8 00:00:24.359 --> 00:00:29.240 Right — mainly just to cheer you up, I brought out 9 00:00:29.240 --> 00:00:33.640 this Tappara mug. Now we're really twisting the knife in the wound, yes, 10 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:37.840 yes. Tappara keeps steaming along — from an Oulu perspective a little 11 00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:43.480 too well. It's wonderful, wonderful! But our topic is the construction industry's 12 00:00:43.480 --> 00:00:48.680 distress — though couldn't you say that your business, this kind of garden and 13 00:00:48.680 --> 00:00:52.440 leisure and summer cottage construction, isn't quite as dreadful — but 14 00:00:52.440 --> 00:00:57.680 could you share a couple of observations about the construction sector in Finland? 15 00:00:57.680 --> 00:01:02.399 Yeah, well, construction has really taken a beating in recent years, and 16 00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:06.520 the market there has been carved up anew — there's been an absolutely staggering number 17 00:01:06.520 --> 00:01:11.080 of bankruptcies. Especially single-family home and residential construction is 18 00:01:11.080 --> 00:01:15.200 still in a pretty difficult situation, but then on the other hand 19 00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:19.720 there are certain sectors — road and infrastructure construction seems to be going quite well, 20 00:01:19.720 --> 00:01:25.119 and it sounds like commercial premises and these wellness facilities 21 00:01:25.119 --> 00:01:29.280 are doing more or less okay. And then of course, in our market, 22 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:33.720 garden buildings, and in leisure-time buildings too a certain 23 00:01:33.720 --> 00:01:38.600 segment, are still, let's say, okay — so the situation is somewhat 24 00:01:38.600 --> 00:01:41.040 polarized, let's put it that way. 25 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:46.240 Yeah, that's how it is. So everything's just awful. I mean, as someone who owns 26 00:01:46.240 --> 00:01:50.719 an apartment in central Helsinki, it's a bit nasty to look at that minus 20 27 00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:54.840 percent we've seen here. But since it hasn't been realized, it 28 00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:58.759 doesn't affect my life. This episode really is made in commercial collaboration 29 00:01:58.759 --> 00:02:04.399 with Salvos. But let's discuss that a bit more, then, 30 00:02:04.399 --> 00:02:09.959 from a personal angle. Over the years I've been having discussions with the board — that is, my wife — 31 00:02:09.959 --> 00:02:14.160 about whether we should have our own summer cottage too. So 32 00:02:14.160 --> 00:02:18.560 the situation we have is — greetings to my mother, by the way — 33 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:24.920 there's a zoned waterfront lot over in Sysmä. There are a couple of 34 00:02:24.920 --> 00:02:27.840 cousins' summer cottages already standing there, and okay, 35 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:31.920 it's about — is it 2 hours 40 minutes — so I suppose it wouldn't be 36 00:02:31.920 --> 00:02:35.280 a completely unbearable trip. You probably see situations like this 37 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:38.040 quite a lot — so how do you tackle something like that? 38 00:02:38.040 --> 00:02:42.280 Well yes, I can certainly say that I can take your wife's 39 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:47.879 side. Yeah, probably — even Mauno the dachshund would like this. 40 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:52.080 Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. And maybe, well, yes — 41 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:58.120 especially now that there's been migration toward these urban centers -- I mean 42 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:02.840 housing is concentrating and the countryside is emptying out, and that trend seems 43 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:07.720 like it's just continuing. So there's this thing where there's an inheritance 44 00:03:07.720 --> 00:03:11.760 plot, or there's an old family homestead, 45 00:03:11.760 --> 00:03:15.360 if you have good memories and you'd want to build something there, 46 00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:19.200 or, let's say, there might already be a cottage there, or an old detached house, 47 00:03:19.200 --> 00:03:24.280 or something like that. But that distance of yours is actually pretty normal -- 48 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:26.799 I don't remember exactly. That cottage barometer came out 49 00:03:26.799 --> 00:03:30.920 from the Council of State just recently, and I think it actually defined the 50 00:03:30.920 --> 00:03:35.000 average distance to the cottage. I don't remember -- it probably wasn't quite that long, but 51 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:39.560 it was, I believe, well over 100 km on average, if I recall, 52 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:42.959 so we're well within, let's say, the margin, so to speak. 53 00:03:42.959 --> 00:03:46.879 Yeah -- Petri Roininen, who's been my guest the most times, 54 00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:50.280 well, I've joked a bit that my idea of a Northern Finland holiday is 55 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:56.200 going to the Flamingo Hotel in Vantaa. But, well, I am a bit of a 56 00:03:56.200 --> 00:03:59.360 village nature person, so to speak, and I do have good memories from there, but 57 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:03.120 then during COVID there was this huge boom, and back then it kind of 58 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:07.920 tempted me -- wouldn't it be great to do this kind of second-location work 59 00:04:07.920 --> 00:04:12.079 out there in nature. But hasn't that trend faded a bit -- 60 00:04:12.079 --> 00:04:17.040 at least a little, that trend has turned downward a bit. Well, maybe from its very 61 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:20.639 peak, but if you think about it, when it comes to living -- 62 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:25.759 living in growth centers, these days, when the per-square-meter construction costs are 63 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:30.120 genuinely still really, really high, and 64 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:33.400 consumers still prefer to live in the centers, 65 00:04:33.400 --> 00:04:36.600 want to live close to services, and then they're willing 66 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:40.479 to compromise on square meters, and then things like these extra little conveniences 67 00:04:40.479 --> 00:04:44.360 are pure luxury in a growth center, so then as a counterbalance to that, 68 00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:48.240 the payoff is that you get outside the growth center, 69 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:51.360 so that you have your own beach or something like that -- these days that's quite a 70 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:54.759 luxury thing, yeah. And there's just a bit of a 71 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:59.600 peaty, humus-type bottom there, but I suppose you can dredge those too. And -- well, maybe 72 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:04.120 we'll get to that 30-square-meter rule later, but there I had a friend 73 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:08.960 and board member and owner, Petter Fredman -- he, in one 74 00:05:08.960 --> 00:05:14.080 earlier episode this year -- it hasn't even been a year yet, but 75 00:05:14.080 --> 00:05:18.639 he was raving about northern Finland, and then I happened to read that Helsingin Sanomat 76 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:22.840 article about the Rovaniemi Airbnb dispute, so maybe there's 77 00:05:22.840 --> 00:05:27.960 maybe something to that too, apparently -- when people want more usage efficiency out of these apartments and 78 00:05:27.960 --> 00:05:32.000 then maybe bring in garden buildings and other things too. But at the same 79 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:37.080 time our decision-makers don't really know what kind of 80 00:05:37.080 --> 00:05:41.360 laws to put in place for these. Have you looked into that? Well, yeah, that's of course 81 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:44.520 a bit related to my own question -- it's more about the accommodation business 82 00:05:44.520 --> 00:05:48.120 not quite directly about the cottage business itself, but yeah, 83 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:52.440 that's -- well, the situation in Rovaniemi is quite peculiar. I mean, 84 00:05:52.440 --> 00:05:55.160 the same situation exists in bigger cities too, generally, 85 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:58.000 when it comes to short-term rentals, but in Rovaniemi it's really 86 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:02.520 escalated, because the problem there, as I understand it, is that 87 00:06:02.520 --> 00:06:06.360 the tourism business is so seasonal -- let's say it's 88 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:09.440 four months, say, but that's still such a short time that if 89 00:06:09.440 --> 00:06:12.280 you look at it from a hotel developer's perspective, then, because of that 90 00:06:12.280 --> 00:06:15.319 season, it's not really sensible to build. And then again, 91 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:20.759 on the other hand, no hotel capacity gets built, which then leads to 92 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:23.759 these resort-type alternatives being used instead, which have of course 93 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:29.520 increased a lot. So someone buys a piece of land and there 94 00:06:29.520 --> 00:06:34.039 invests in these separate small cottage-type units, sort of 95 00:06:34.039 --> 00:06:38.160 studio-apartment-sized or a bit bigger with panoramic windows, and then there's some 96 00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:43.000 bigger -- say some restaurant-and-spa facility there 97 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:47.120 where people go to eat and so on. So that's another 98 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:51.560 concept -- a whole story in itself as to why it's really taken off, but 99 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:55.039 even that capacity has grown too slowly relative to visitor numbers, 100 00:06:55.039 --> 00:06:58.199 which somehow leads to a situation where, since demand is greater than 101 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:01.039 supply, it drives up short-term rental rates. Mm. 102 00:07:01.039 --> 00:07:05.080 which of course, in an extreme case, leads to there not being 103 00:07:05.080 --> 00:07:08.759 enough other capacity there, and then of course there are also these 104 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:13.000 side effects -- if you live in the same apartment block that has 25 units, 105 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:16.319 of which 20 are used for short-term rental, that can make your life quite 106 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:20.759 unsettled, which partly disturbs 107 00:07:20.759 --> 00:07:23.039 the residents. And then, on the other hand, you also run into 108 00:07:23.039 --> 00:07:26.720 zoning regulations and things like that -- whether you're even allowed to run this kind of 109 00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:30.160 accommodation business there. These are really awkward, difficult 110 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:31.639 yeah, difficult situations, and there it's now 111 00:07:31.639 --> 00:07:37.599 threatening to escalate quite a bit in Rovaniemi. Yeah, and I was recently 112 00:07:37.599 --> 00:07:42.199 I always do a long trip every couple of years, usually a bit around Norway, 113 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:48.680 hiking, and up there in the northeast, [unclear] -- 114 00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:54.599 in northwestern Finland -- actually, this is embarrassing, I still have to admit, I just -- 115 00:07:54.599 --> 00:07:59.080 well, anyway, we traveled through there, right around the Levi 116 00:07:59.080 --> 00:08:01.919 area, and there was exactly the kind of thing you mentioned -- it's sort of 117 00:08:01.919 --> 00:08:05.800 a hub like that, and then cottages around it. But isn't this -- by the way, isn't 'salvos' itself 118 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:10.919 some kind of terrible log-construction term? Yeah, it's like, well, 119 00:08:10.919 --> 00:08:15.840 logs need to be joined together at the corner somehow. There are 120 00:08:15.840 --> 00:08:20.520 dovetail joints, cross corners, and then there's a miter corner and all sorts. So 121 00:08:20.520 --> 00:08:22.800 that joint is called a 'salvos' [a corner-notch log joint]. 122 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:26.919 Yeah, folk tradition. Right, right. But doesn't this concept, in principle, 123 00:08:26.919 --> 00:08:32.479 fit that too a little? It's sort of like -- well, I don't know, at Vierumäki 124 00:08:32.479 --> 00:08:35.440 I visit sometimes. I'm not very athletic, but in a way it's 125 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:38.360 a nice sort of cottage-village thing too. Yeah, yeah, 126 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:40.519 yeah, yeah, yeah. And we, this year, 127 00:08:40.519 --> 00:08:44.600 actually just -- well, delivered -- a 40-accommodation-module 128 00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:48.120 complex -- or rather, we delivered the modules, it wasn't 129 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:51.720 built on-site. That's the more precise term, but anyway, 130 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:55.920 to Ounasvaara in Rovaniemi, for this kind of use, and 131 00:08:55.920 --> 00:09:02.279 yeah, exactly. Well, this year -- last year we had 600 modules 132 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:07.000 come out of the factory finished. We have quite good capacity to make 133 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:10.200 solutions like that, so we were able to deliver -- if I remember correctly, 134 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:14.480 it was maybe at the end of March when we reached the agreement with this 135 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:17.640 client, and then it had to be delivered by the end of October, so that's a pretty 136 00:09:17.640 --> 00:09:20.680 fast pace. And we made it in time -- it worked out. Mm. 137 00:09:20.680 --> 00:09:25.040 But that's exactly the point there -- the investment 138 00:09:25.040 --> 00:09:28.079 in that room capacity, compared to when you build 139 00:09:28.079 --> 00:09:29.600 a hotel, mm, 140 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:33.560 the per-square-meter cost -- the return on capital is completely different 141 00:09:33.560 --> 00:09:39.320 in this kind of less heavily built space, which nevertheless 142 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.079 is a very luxurious, good solution. 143 00:09:42.079 --> 00:09:45.240 So that's the point -- that's exactly why it tends to go toward this resort model, especially 144 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:49.240 given a season like this, toward this kind of resort-type approach instead of that hotel 145 00:09:49.240 --> 00:09:53.279 investment. Of course, one solution could be that 146 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:55.920 up in Lapland too, I've thought about this a lot -- how 147 00:09:55.920 --> 00:09:59.959 you could get -- because right now winter is the big thing there, but 148 00:09:59.959 --> 00:10:04.160 Finland's nightless night [midnight sun] is quite a unique case, especially since Central Europe 149 00:10:04.160 --> 00:10:06.000 seems to be having pretty hot summers. Mm. 150 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:09.000 so there's already some amount of foreign tourism just because of that, since 151 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:13.279 conditions there are humane. Yeah. That autumn-foliage ['ruska'] tourism is totally 152 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:16.240 top-notch. That's exactly when the midges have died off. It's sort of 153 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:18.760 the perfect, perfect moment. I haven't 154 00:10:18.760 --> 00:10:22.399 actually been there during summer, during the worst 155 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:26.079 black-fly season -- I haven't visited then -- but I do hear 156 00:10:26.079 --> 00:10:30.800 some stories about it, so that's maybe a small downside. 157 00:10:30.800 --> 00:10:35.320 Yeah, but that autumn foliage tourism is at least totally top-notch, and it 158 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:40.440 is definitely growing. But actually what interested me there was that production model. Maybe we could 159 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:45.920 play that a bit in the background here. So in Petter Fredman's 160 00:10:45.920 --> 00:10:50.839 video, this was shown. We had set up these sort of 161 00:10:50.839 --> 00:10:55.639 robotics for coffee filters and things like that. But isn't that kind of 162 00:10:55.639 --> 00:11:00.160 modular leisure construction of yours probably -- 163 00:11:00.160 --> 00:11:04.399 sorry, this is around when he was a guest -- sorry, this question jumps around a bit, but 164 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:08.480 I just thought of that Lapland concept -- those were like Lego-type things. 165 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:11.600 Don't you have a bit of the same kind of setup? Well, yeah, with the 166 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:14.600 difference that we finish the buildings completely, but 167 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:17.800 it's the same in the sense that this industrial manufacturing is 168 00:11:17.800 --> 00:11:22.079 interesting, because it's been tried, and it's been 169 00:11:22.079 --> 00:11:24.839 developed -- it's been developed a lot in recent 170 00:11:24.839 --> 00:11:28.360 years, I think, but the challenge there is exactly this: 171 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:30.800 logistics -- if we're talking about bigger buildings, like 172 00:11:30.800 --> 00:11:33.440 a residential solution for your own home, 173 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:37.160 some of that is done -- they're brought in ready-made, or 174 00:11:37.160 --> 00:11:40.160 ready-made modules are brought in. That's been developed, but there's exactly this 175 00:11:40.160 --> 00:11:43.279 challenge -- the logistics. Logistics are challenging and really 176 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:46.600 expensive, so the industrial-manufacturing 177 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:50.360 cost benefit gets eaten up by that logistics, and then still you 178 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:54.000 end up having to do on-site construction anyway. But then when 179 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:57.079 we move to leisure construction, if we think about, say, 180 00:11:57.079 --> 00:12:01.639 the average floor area of new leisure buildings, based on Statistics Finland's 181 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:05.320 data, was something like 60 square meters. Mm, which for us too is kind of 182 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:08.760 our so-called 183 00:12:08.760 --> 00:12:10.320 bread-and-butter work in cottage buildings. Yeah. 184 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:13.800 So that's a solution that can, in turn, be industrially 185 00:12:13.800 --> 00:12:17.079 manufactured quite well. And then of course, when we connect modules, 186 00:12:17.079 --> 00:12:20.000 we have the ability to join them in a properly sealed way, so we can 187 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:25.639 combine two spaces into one, and then we get those 188 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:29.240 parts small enough that we can transport them 189 00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:32.279 cost-effectively too. So we get the benefit of industrial manufacturing, and then 190 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:38.040 the transport as well. And if you think again about 191 00:12:38.040 --> 00:12:41.120 traditional single-family home construction, prefab building has 192 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:45.199 been around there for a long time. But move-in-ready suppliers, in turn, aren't 193 00:12:45.199 --> 00:12:48.480 hugely interested in -- sorry, this leisure-home construction -- for the 194 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:52.279 reason that there are actually a couple of reasons. They're quite small, 195 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:55.360 and then leisure construction is located out 196 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:59.279 outside the growth centers. So you have to haul materials and 197 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:04.639 labor out to the countryside, the regions, which is really expensive, 198 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:07.839 and so it hasn't really been made cost-effective that way, so 199 00:13:07.839 --> 00:13:10.560 this industry has traditionally been pretty conservative -- it's been about 200 00:13:10.560 --> 00:13:13.959 traditional materials supply, where materials are delivered and the customer themselves 201 00:13:13.959 --> 00:13:18.320 then organizes the construction, either themselves or through subcontractors, or however 202 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:22.839 they organize it. So this has really been fertile ground 203 00:13:22.839 --> 00:13:25.880 for this kind of industrial manufacturing, which is what we've gone into -- we 204 00:13:25.880 --> 00:13:28.839 -- but we started this first with 205 00:13:28.839 --> 00:13:33.079 garden buildings, garden saunas, these kinds of storehouse-type buildings, and from there 206 00:13:33.079 --> 00:13:35.240 we then quickly started developing 207 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:37.800 cottage solutions too -- this has changed. So I 208 00:13:37.800 --> 00:13:42.320 remember -- greetings to my mother's brother, uncle Pate -- I remember 209 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:46.920 in my childhood, out there, it was completely built by hand from logs, sort of 210 00:13:46.920 --> 00:13:51.440 put up as a square. Their cottage, out there -- it's still 211 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:55.000 there, and I remember how the guys just hauled those 212 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:59.480 long logs there themselves, and then some help came along, and 213 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:03.199 they were dragged around the cottage site with a tractor, but 214 00:14:03.199 --> 00:14:06.639 of course today's people couldn't handle anything like that, no 215 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:10.040 way -- you'd have to be quite 216 00:14:10.040 --> 00:14:13.320 Rambo to build something like that yourself. 217 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.240 But isn't this -- couldn't you say it's actually become 218 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:19.399 incredibly easy now. And in a way, hasn't the municipalities' 219 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:23.560 attitude improved too -- that the zoning processes and 220 00:14:23.560 --> 00:14:29.000 systems have become more sensible -- not to sound too encouraging as a word choice, but 221 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:32.480 it's not that big a deal, even though many people fear it'll turn into 222 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:36.959 financial ruin and a long project where every budget overruns. 223 00:14:36.959 --> 00:14:41.120 Of course that can always happen in construction, but it is 224 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:44.440 reasonably easy, this kind of leisure-home 225 00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:47.880 -- well, if you think about it, today we're able to 226 00:14:47.880 --> 00:14:53.519 -- part of our own service concept, in marketing terms, a genuinely turnkey 227 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:56.199 concept -- we apply for, say, a leisure home permit, which 228 00:14:56.199 --> 00:14:59.160 is still subject to a permit -- we apply for the permit on the customer's behalf and take care of 229 00:14:59.160 --> 00:15:02.800 the necessary groundwork, foundations, and deliver a completely finished building. 230 00:15:02.800 --> 00:15:06.279 The average delivery time from order 231 00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:10.959 to handover is roughly about half a year, so that's the timeframe, 232 00:15:10.959 --> 00:15:14.480 and all the costs are defined in advance. So that product 233 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:17.160 -- this manufacturing approach has brought that. But imagine, for example, a situation 234 00:15:17.160 --> 00:15:19.320 where you started building out there in Heinola 235 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:22.800 a cottage, and tried to organize it constantly from here. 236 00:15:22.800 --> 00:15:27.639 Then, say, materials get taken to the site, and this too is 237 00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:30.399 a challenge -- this material management. If you think, say, that you 238 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:33.800 have a felt roof going in there, you need to order enough of that felt, 239 00:15:33.800 --> 00:15:36.800 well, Heinola doesn't sound too remote yet, 240 00:15:36.800 --> 00:15:39.560 but you still have to order enough of that 241 00:15:39.560 --> 00:15:42.560 felt, say, in such a quantity that it doesn't run out, because if 242 00:15:42.560 --> 00:15:46.240 it runs out, that's an insane cost. Then if you have to go 243 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:49.160 in the best case hundreds of kilometers to a hardware store to get that 244 00:15:49.160 --> 00:15:52.040 material, that's expensive, so you end up ordering 245 00:15:52.040 --> 00:15:54.480 extra of it just so it doesn't run out. 246 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.399 Yeah. And then there's the question of how cost-effective the whole thing is, and 247 00:15:57.399 --> 00:16:00.160 then also how much waste gets generated and how 248 00:16:00.160 --> 00:16:04.880 problematic that is in that sense. So -- 249 00:16:04.880 --> 00:16:08.199 yeah, in that sense, if we think about our own operations, we're 250 00:16:08.199 --> 00:16:11.759 still able to -- well, take that roll of felt: when it runs out, we cut 251 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:14.480 the roll right where it's 252 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:17.680 enough for this building, and then continue with the next one. It's 253 00:16:17.680 --> 00:16:20.759 just so much more efficient and handy with an industrial process 254 00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:23.920 to do that. That distance really 255 00:16:23.920 --> 00:16:26.959 often makes organizing leisure-home construction really challenging, if you don't 256 00:16:26.959 --> 00:16:29.639 get it delivered fully finished. There might already be 257 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:33.079 cottage-road infrastructure there, but in our 258 00:16:33.079 --> 00:16:37.800 situation, everything would already be done, so in that sense 259 00:16:37.800 --> 00:16:39.959 it sounds pretty scarily easy. 260 00:16:39.959 --> 00:16:42.680 Just great. We can talk about it in more detail over lunch. 261 00:16:42.680 --> 00:16:47.680 Yeah, I'll have to look into it and fine-tune the budget a bit. Speaking of 262 00:16:47.680 --> 00:16:54.079 budgets -- a while back, or a bit further back, when I came back from London, 263 00:16:54.079 --> 00:17:00.440 I bought, out in Suvisaaristo, back then, together with my wife, 264 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:05.799 a plot, and had a house built on it by, I think, a competitor of Pohjola's design-house company -- 265 00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:09.720 Kannustalo -- a mansard-roof house. And then there was a surprise: 266 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:15.120 since we got a sloped plot, an extra 100 [square meters] suddenly popped up in the basement, and 267 00:17:15.120 --> 00:17:18.199 there was a site foreman who worked all that out, but 268 00:17:18.199 --> 00:17:22.079 I remember it would definitely have been bankruptcy for young Sami, 269 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:25.760 but then help came along, and the plot was sold, already zoned, 270 00:17:25.760 --> 00:17:30.440 at a profit, and then the next owner made a somewhat smaller, 271 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:34.640 somewhat less grandiose setup out of it. Yeah. But I do remember there was 272 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.679 -- even though there was that site foreman -- it was quite 273 00:17:37.679 --> 00:17:41.840 painful, because you still had to weigh in on pretty much every single thing 274 00:17:41.840 --> 00:17:45.600 and sweat over it -- like, where's some 275 00:17:45.600 --> 00:17:50.200 block-built basement going to be built here, and who's going to dig it, and so on. There's 276 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:53.280 a lot of advantage, then, in your model. 277 00:17:53.280 --> 00:17:57.720 Absolutely. Yeah. So, generally speaking, 278 00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:02.240 what's a typical customer like? I've been rambling on a bit here, but 279 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:05.720 when I was thinking about this most actively, like 10 years ago, 280 00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:09.520 I thought, well, I'm 55 now, so is this maybe a bit 281 00:18:09.520 --> 00:18:13.640 too late -- right in the core age bracket. Exactly 282 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:17.919 in the core bracket -- actually even a bit young for this. 283 00:18:17.919 --> 00:18:22.760 Let's wait a couple of years. But yeah. What was that thing you mentioned earlier? 284 00:18:22.760 --> 00:18:26.080 Uh, that was the interesting Council of State's cottage barometer that just came out -- 285 00:18:26.080 --> 00:18:31.360 was it that over 50% of cottage owners are pensioners, and 80% are over 286 00:18:31.360 --> 00:18:33.840 50 years old? That's interesting in itself -- there's 287 00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:38.720 a pretty big generational shift coming on that basis, so to speak, 288 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:42.880 but yeah, as for the question of whether you're 'too late' -- well, that's an easy 289 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:46.360 word to use. So is this a typical situation -- 290 00:18:46.360 --> 00:18:50.360 a lot of people think about this: the cottage stock is old, but it's 291 00:18:50.360 --> 00:18:54.039 such that some of it was of course built with great care, 292 00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:57.760 using traditional methods, but expectations have risen quite a bit too, 293 00:18:57.760 --> 00:19:01.320 since people want, for instance, year-round 294 00:19:01.320 --> 00:19:06.720 livability, and electricity, and heating, and fiber-optic internet, so 295 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:10.440 yeah, yeah, well, especially this remote-work thing has 296 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:13.240 brought that along, and then there's this consumer attitude where, even if 297 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:16.440 people say they're not going to live off hauled water, they still 298 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:20.520 want a fairly upscale solution. Well, exactly -- 299 00:19:20.520 --> 00:19:25.640 on cottage condition -- since about a third, according to this same cottage-barometer study, 300 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:28.880 still -- and it's a really good study, worth reading -- 301 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:32.559 are, so to speak, only in use for a few months a year, 302 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:37.240 meaning they're left unheated in winter, and especially if it's a board-frame 303 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:41.919 type of construction, at best there's mineral wool insulation or 304 00:19:41.919 --> 00:19:45.200 something similar -- so a large share of them probably aren't in 305 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:48.400 great condition, which really raises the question of whether it's worth 306 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:51.360 renovating or whether you need to replace it. This has quite often been the case where 307 00:19:51.360 --> 00:19:55.679 we've handled the demolition through some subcontractor, and 308 00:19:55.679 --> 00:19:59.880 brought in a completely new solution. But yeah, it's clearly 309 00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:03.640 -- COVID definitely added to that -- people want exactly this: 310 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:07.400 good internet connections, and these kinds of -- there are these 311 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:11.679 directional cottage antennas, so that you can get 5G reception a bit 312 00:20:11.679 --> 00:20:15.240 farther out, and so on. So it really 313 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:19.280 -- people probably want a better level of amenities, but then 314 00:20:19.280 --> 00:20:23.120 the size doesn't need to be so big -- people accept smaller. 315 00:20:23.120 --> 00:20:27.840 Of course families are smaller too, so you don't need that much space either. But 316 00:20:27.840 --> 00:20:32.159 small is actually quite a luxury these days -- 317 00:20:32.159 --> 00:20:33.640 small, so -- actually, didn't this come along -- 318 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:38.799 this new Building Act, so Finland actually got something done -- under 30 square meters 319 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:43.080 it's now easier to build. At first that 30 sounds like 320 00:20:43.080 --> 00:20:49.120 quite a small [area], but it turns out to be enough. Well, it's not just 321 00:20:49.120 --> 00:20:52.640 the only one who'd say so. We do get some of that, where 322 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:57.000 people want that garden sauna or garden building, and it's 30 square meters and 323 00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:59.960 then, say, a garden sauna of 30 square meters -- okay, so what -- well, then you don't 324 00:20:59.960 --> 00:21:04.679 need much beyond the sauna itself and maybe a small changing room. 30 is pretty generous, so 325 00:21:04.679 --> 00:21:08.240 here you'd have this sauna-cabin thing, with a living room and then a sauna. Ah, 326 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:12.440 yeah, this is really good, but this is 60 [square meters]. This is half of what we were talking about, 327 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:15.679 so hopefully we'll often see it done with something smaller too, but yeah, 328 00:21:15.679 --> 00:21:19.559 I do have to say about that -- lawmakers always get criticized, but in my 329 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:23.320 opinion that -- I think that relates to the new Building 330 00:21:23.320 --> 00:21:26.840 Act and the related bureaucracy-cutting drive, so 331 00:21:26.840 --> 00:21:29.279 I'd assume it relates to the Sipilä government's 332 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:31.799 bureaucracy-cutting effort -- that it's 333 00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:35.760 a remnant from that, or an end result of that. 334 00:21:35.760 --> 00:21:39.559 So I have to say it's a great reform, 335 00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:43.480 and there had been a lot of worry about what it would 336 00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:46.480 cause -- whether it would make construction go wild and so on -- 337 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:49.720 but at least so far there's no sign of that. There was just an article -- 338 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:54.279 I don't remember which paper -- saying nothing of the sort has been observed. 339 00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:57.440 I do think this kind of thing should be done more boldly 340 00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:01.400 in general too. So indeed, the new Building Act came 341 00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:05.880 into force at the start of the year -- January 2025, so a year ago, at the start of the year, 342 00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:08.919 to clarify. And the point there was that 343 00:22:08.919 --> 00:22:12.320 of course a big reform covers a lot, but the part that's maybe 344 00:22:12.320 --> 00:22:16.840 relevant to this context is that these under-30-square-meter 345 00:22:16.840 --> 00:22:20.559 utility buildings are exempted from the building-permit requirement, meaning 346 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:24.000 if you have building rights, you can build a garden building under 30 square meters 347 00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:28.679 without a building permit, of course while following the building regulations, 348 00:22:28.679 --> 00:22:31.679 and that's a really great thing -- it shows in 349 00:22:31.679 --> 00:22:35.159 the market too, demand grew, and I think Sweden did 350 00:22:35.159 --> 00:22:38.480 a similar reform earlier and it's been a good thing, and 351 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:41.679 as a result, purely good things happened -- everybody wins, so 352 00:22:41.679 --> 00:22:47.559 the load on municipal building-control departments eased, and 353 00:22:47.559 --> 00:22:51.000 demand grew, because applying for a building permit is now easier 354 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:53.640 these days. It's actually a pretty bureaucratic process -- back before, 355 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:57.080 if you went straight to the local building 356 00:22:57.080 --> 00:23:00.440 office and said, 'Hey, I want to build this, how do I 357 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:03.840 get a permit,' that doesn't happen anymore today. Now you can go to 358 00:23:03.840 --> 00:23:07.159 various services, permit points and the like, where you then apply for the 359 00:23:07.159 --> 00:23:10.760 permit, and there are still quite a lot of steps, and many people do it 360 00:23:10.760 --> 00:23:14.200 for the first, and only, time in their life, so that's a pretty 361 00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:17.640 difficult thing. Here we saw that when that 362 00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:21.039 bureaucracy was cut on this smaller end, vitality increased, 363 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:25.200 everybody wins, demand grows, and in my opinion it's just a 364 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:29.000 great, great reform. Whenever lawmakers get blamed for adding 365 00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:32.159 bureaucracy, here they really deserve credit -- it's just a great thing. 366 00:23:32.159 --> 00:23:35.679 So does this apply in urban, built-up areas too? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 367 00:23:35.679 --> 00:23:38.480 Okay. See, I remember that about Suvisaaristo. It was just completely 368 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:43.559 megalomaniacal. There we had a 5,000-square-meter plot. Back then the zoning allowed 10%, meaning 369 00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:47.640 500 square meters. So then I did it so that I set it up so that 370 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:51.039 I somewhat assumed it would rise to 20 [percent] at some point, so you'd get a free 371 00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:53.960 extra half, sort of. Okay. Yeah. And then I remember 372 00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:58.559 thinking about it, well, cars -- this megalomaniac place of mine was 274 [square meters] plus a basement, 373 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:02.159 on top of the 'giant' concept, so I figured we'd probably need 374 00:24:02.159 --> 00:24:05.640 to fit a car in there too, and so on -- and now you can actually do things like that 375 00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:08.080 pretty freely. And this has also increased 376 00:24:08.080 --> 00:24:12.960 -- think about your own home, for instance -- this is, first of all, this remote-work 377 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:15.480 point there too, where people want to be 378 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:18.520 working remotely, but then a separate, say, garden 379 00:24:18.520 --> 00:24:20.679 sauna building with a remote-work space, mm, 380 00:24:20.679 --> 00:24:23.600 so, for example, in a family with kids you can go 381 00:24:23.600 --> 00:24:27.799 out there to work remotely and then come back home. It's not a long commute from 382 00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:31.440 your own plot. And there's maybe a sauna too, or otherwise you could 383 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:35.760 use that same garden building -- say when the teens grow up and you don't want 384 00:24:35.760 --> 00:24:39.240 them hanging around at the ABC [gas-station chain] in the evenings, they can stay there instead, but they're 385 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:42.120 still under the parents' eye. So that's this kind of extra space in the yard, 386 00:24:42.120 --> 00:24:45.240 and they're really versatile hobby spaces -- 387 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:49.640 band-practice rooms, some use them for painting, some as a podcast studio, 388 00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:53.480 a home gym, yeah -- there are various uses for it. But the point is 389 00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:55.760 that if you have building rights, 390 00:24:55.760 --> 00:24:59.799 you can build it without a building permit, and that's just 391 00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:03.960 a great thing, and this reform is definitely worth 392 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:08.080 taking advantage of. Well, that's really something -- I'll have to 393 00:25:08.080 --> 00:25:12.720 look into that a bit. I'm actually already pretty content with this 394 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:18.880 urban life here in central Helsinki. I did live in London 395 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:21.679 for 13 years. Over there, actually, it's surprisingly free -- people have been able to 396 00:25:21.679 --> 00:25:25.279 build things like townhouse basements and other 397 00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:29.880 stuff in a pretty random way. Whereas here in Finland, 398 00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:34.640 the old culture is that everything has to be really strict, so that's 399 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:36.559 actually a bit of an outlier globally. Yeah, 400 00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:40.360 it's good if it moves in that direction, because you could of course think, 401 00:25:40.360 --> 00:25:43.480 that if you have, in a way, the cost-effective solution, and then maybe 402 00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:48.559 the other related construction work 403 00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:52.480 is a bit cheaper now that demand has dropped elsewhere, 404 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:56.080 this could actually be quite a favorable moment. And then maybe the project's 405 00:25:56.080 --> 00:25:59.919 conceptual risk is a bit lower too, since there's more capacity out there 406 00:25:59.919 --> 00:26:04.760 outside your own operation, so it could be a pretty good moment, 407 00:26:04.760 --> 00:26:07.720 so you're not in a boom period where everyone's fighting 408 00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:11.120 over the same resources, so you don't end up watching the costs tick away 409 00:26:11.120 --> 00:26:15.039 absolutely. Yeah. And that's also, in a way, 410 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:20.840 -- I was just at, uh, Mikko Nurminen's table 411 00:26:20.840 --> 00:26:26.679 over at FiBAN, and about that Airbnb thing we were discussing, that in 412 00:26:26.679 --> 00:26:32.640 the apartment-block side, as a side effect, things like cottage-sharing groups and so on -- 413 00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:35.720 if you're not using it yourself all the time, it's 414 00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:38.760 become pretty painless to rent it out too, actually. 415 00:26:38.760 --> 00:26:44.320 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Funny -- I have, out in Puolanka, this 416 00:26:44.320 --> 00:26:46.799 small little sauna cottage, and 417 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:51.320 well, I bought a plot out there at some point, and 418 00:26:51.320 --> 00:26:54.960 then I built, on-site, out of solid logs, this 419 00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:58.039 well -- 'the cobbler's children have no shoes' -- of course it wasn't industrially prefabricated, 420 00:26:58.039 --> 00:27:02.720 it could only be built on-site, but it was this kind of solid-log 421 00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:07.960 solution. And I built into it a sauna cabin, meaning 422 00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:12.840 there's, say, a ten-square-meter living room, a small kitchen, and then 423 00:27:12.840 --> 00:27:18.080 a sauna and washing facilities. So I thought, 424 00:27:18.080 --> 00:27:20.520 I'd build that first, so that our family would have some kind of 425 00:27:20.520 --> 00:27:24.679 base there, and then maybe later a cottage solution on top of it, and 426 00:27:24.679 --> 00:27:28.960 well, then, because of the busy family years, in the end actual visits 427 00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:34.000 out there have been pretty rare. So I tried it out once I got the place 428 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:37.159 into shape so it could be rented out, and I've since listed it on Airbnb 429 00:27:37.159 --> 00:27:42.120 and rented it out there. There's really been very good demand for it, in that 430 00:27:42.120 --> 00:27:47.399 of course you need electricity and drinkable water and so on, of course, 431 00:27:47.399 --> 00:27:50.880 for it to actually work. But I was genuinely surprised, 432 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:54.440 because I thought it was such a small space -- okay, it's about 25 433 00:27:54.440 --> 00:27:59.840 square meters of floor area there -- but there's really been a lot of interest, and even 434 00:27:59.840 --> 00:28:03.559 foreign tourists. Really good reviews have come in, and lots of 435 00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:07.279 thanks for the place. I thought, no, this is too small for that, but 436 00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:10.799 on the contrary, it's been really, really good, and I've 437 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:14.159 been surprised by it. Then maybe, something I've generally followed -- take, for instance, 438 00:28:14.159 --> 00:28:17.919 Puolanka as an example, which is quite a cottage-rich municipality, 439 00:28:17.919 --> 00:28:21.840 and where, say, Airbnb-style rental hasn't really been used all that much. It's 440 00:28:21.840 --> 00:28:24.440 interesting in that sense -- surprisingly, when you notice how 441 00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:27.679 popular it actually is on the demand side. Yeah, this Mikko Nurminen's 442 00:28:27.679 --> 00:28:31.640 business is Hostaway, which supports Airbnb -- so basically exactly those 443 00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:36.240 -- it handles just that cross-border management. I mean, a unicorn 444 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:39.399 business -- the guy has really built an incredible business, and 445 00:28:39.399 --> 00:28:42.600 yeah, that's -- I had, as a guest, 446 00:28:42.600 --> 00:28:48.440 Holmström -- was it Timo -- who was a high-school teacher, 447 00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:53.320 and he does this young-entrepreneurs business, and writes 448 00:28:53.320 --> 00:28:56.519 books about it too -- a great guy. So we do have quite a lot of 449 00:28:56.519 --> 00:29:00.399 this kind of expertise in Finland, and maybe digitalization 450 00:29:00.399 --> 00:29:04.640 in general too -- maybe I could do a little rant about 451 00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:09.559 Salvos and its subsidiary Lapeland Oy, in the sense of 452 00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:12.559 how you've organized things -- this instantly-finished 453 00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:16.120 concept seems to be at the core of it, but 454 00:29:16.120 --> 00:29:20.159 well, yeah, yeah, on the Salvos side we make 455 00:29:20.159 --> 00:29:23.399 leisure buildings out of logs -- log construction is our thing -- and of course 456 00:29:23.399 --> 00:29:26.799 on-site building, and the point -- the added value -- is precisely that we 457 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:29.559 manufacture the buildings industrially to completion, which makes it 458 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:34.840 easy for customers. And we've wanted to make the whole 459 00:29:34.840 --> 00:29:39.120 product-and-service concept as easy as possible, so if you need a 460 00:29:39.120 --> 00:29:42.200 building permit, we get it on the customer's behalf, and we can do the groundwork, and 461 00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:45.240 make the whole thing as easy as possible -- and this industrial 462 00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:48.679 manufacturing is what makes that possible. And in addition, we also have 463 00:29:48.679 --> 00:29:52.480 a subsidiary, Lapeland, which also has its own factory, and it's its own 464 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:55.039 operating company, part of the same group, 465 00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:58.200 and what's distinctive for them is that their equivalent buildings are 466 00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:02.000 movable -- they're on wheels, and of course the building material isn't 467 00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:05.120 log -- they're what's called trailer saunas, trailer cottages. 468 00:30:05.120 --> 00:30:12.679 older folks might remember Paavo Väyrynen's thing -- what was it called -- 469 00:30:12.679 --> 00:30:16.720 well, I just blanked for a second, but he had some kind of towable cottage 470 00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:21.039 -- because as an MP he had to, in a way, determine his home 471 00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:24.880 municipality, so he had this kind of mobile log 472 00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:30.080 cottage building -- a skid-mounted cottage. Yeah, yeah, a skid cottage, exactly, that's what it was, 473 00:30:30.080 --> 00:30:34.399 yeah. But it's actually been a surprisingly popular, 474 00:30:34.399 --> 00:30:37.559 well-growing business. There's of course an advantage in that 475 00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:41.519 movable solution -- you don't need foundations, and 476 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:44.000 it's specifically movable, so, for instance, there are a lot of 477 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:45.640 family-shared plots, and 478 00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:49.640 then you have your own small trailer cottage there, which has 479 00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:54.799 a sauna and living space, a couple of beds, and so on, and 480 00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:57.159 you can then move it if you need to -- it's not tied down 481 00:30:57.159 --> 00:31:00.760 to that plot in any way. There's also a lot of cases where someone likes to 482 00:31:00.760 --> 00:31:03.919 be in Lapland in the winters, but then they also have, say, a 483 00:31:03.919 --> 00:31:06.880 summer place somewhere else, maybe in Kainuu, so they can 484 00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:11.320 move it when needed. Is there, in a way, the issue related to foundations 485 00:31:11.320 --> 00:31:17.279 -- rot and so on -- somehow solved so that 486 00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:21.399 -- well, I myself don't really know much about construction, but 487 00:31:21.399 --> 00:31:24.159 quite a lot of those moisture-damage problems and so on come, I think, from 488 00:31:24.159 --> 00:31:29.080 poor foundations. Well, the Lapeland solution doesn't need 489 00:31:29.080 --> 00:31:31.919 a foundation at all, since it's basically a traditional trailer, and that's 490 00:31:31.919 --> 00:31:36.320 mainly the ease of it -- you don't have to drive a single stake into the ground at all, if 491 00:31:36.320 --> 00:31:40.440 you don't want to. You can level it with, like, caravan-leveling technique, 492 00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:43.679 if you want, or you can also hook it up to conventional building services, 493 00:31:43.679 --> 00:31:46.880 if you want -- it makes it easy. And then, for our side, we use 494 00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:49.639 what's called a pillar foundation -- the underfloor space is ventilated all the time, 495 00:31:49.639 --> 00:31:52.320 so nothing can start rotting in there -- it just keeps ventilating 496 00:31:52.320 --> 00:31:54.320 continuously. Because mold damage 497 00:31:54.320 --> 00:31:57.600 is constantly used to scare people. Of course, with old 498 00:31:57.600 --> 00:32:01.120 housing stock, if you buy one of those, it's an even bigger problem, because they were 499 00:32:01.120 --> 00:32:06.159 built however it happened to turn out. Yeah, yeah, there's plenty of that, 500 00:32:06.159 --> 00:32:09.720 going back decades -- there was every kind of 501 00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:12.519 hidden-plinth foundation solution, those are 502 00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:16.120 -- but what's started to interest me is that production side of things -- I'm on 503 00:32:16.120 --> 00:32:19.440 the board of Redman Group, and I was really blown away when 504 00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:22.919 I got to think through those robots and other things myself, like whether we'd take 505 00:32:22.919 --> 00:32:28.039 plan 2.1 or 2.2 here, and of course 2.2, since it had more 506 00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:31.760 line changes and so on. And then I remember, with 507 00:32:31.760 --> 00:32:36.360 my Translink hat on, when Norsk Hydro was listed, and they got 508 00:32:36.360 --> 00:32:39.919 IPO proceeds and built a whole new production facility with them, and it was 509 00:32:39.919 --> 00:32:43.399 great to watch them design the flow in there -- 510 00:32:43.399 --> 00:32:46.960 is this the kind of thing that's your everyday work, tuning the production line, 511 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:49.840 or was it born perfect from the start? 512 00:32:49.840 --> 00:32:53.519 Definitely not. Definitely not. And this is exactly the thing -- since with us 513 00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:57.039 -- this is actually funny -- every single building solution of ours 514 00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:00.360 is, in practice, a bit customized, but by far the largest part of the solution 515 00:33:00.360 --> 00:33:02.720 is tailored by the customer themselves. Yeah. 516 00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:06.600 So this kind of modularity is what makes that possible, and that's 517 00:33:06.600 --> 00:33:09.600 a significant added value. If you have a plot, it's 518 00:33:09.600 --> 00:33:13.919 always a bit unique -- which way the windows face, how the cottage is 519 00:33:13.919 --> 00:33:17.559 brought in. So every solution is practically unique, especially 520 00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:21.039 on the cottage side, which of course creates a challenge in the production 521 00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:26.279 process. There's constant small variability. So that 522 00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:30.200 variation keeps coming up, and at the same time you have to combine it with 523 00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:32.799 this kind of industrial manufacturing anyway. We do of course have 524 00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:35.639 a strict concept for how it can be varied, so that it supports 525 00:33:35.639 --> 00:33:39.159 the production process. But managing a big supply chain like that 526 00:33:39.159 --> 00:33:42.399 really does involve quite a lot of variables -- 527 00:33:42.399 --> 00:33:46.519 what buffers are needed at different points in production, 528 00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:49.519 and then how the production is planned, how it's 529 00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:53.360 loaded. That's one of the biggest, most central things for production efficiency -- 530 00:33:53.360 --> 00:33:56.720 how the production is loaded, and it's at the planning stage 531 00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:00.080 that the biggest factor in production efficiency is decided -- if 532 00:34:00.080 --> 00:34:04.080 it's loaded poorly, then problems show up on that line and it shows immediately 533 00:34:04.080 --> 00:34:07.399 in the output. And especially in a setup where 534 00:34:07.399 --> 00:34:10.720 everything is different -- whereas if you think of a traditional 535 00:34:10.720 --> 00:34:14.200 car factory, that's repeating the same thing over and over, and there's 536 00:34:14.200 --> 00:34:17.800 a certain rhythm you can follow. But here, the situation 537 00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:21.839 is constantly changing and evolving, so you have to track the data pretty closely. 538 00:34:21.839 --> 00:34:27.240 Yeah, I actually visited that Valmet factory in Uusimaa, and of course 539 00:34:27.240 --> 00:34:30.560 there too, even with robotics, you get an incredible amount of 540 00:34:30.560 --> 00:34:34.320 customization, since the cars change and so on. Now 541 00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:38.399 they're about to start making, like, weapons too there, so 542 00:34:38.399 --> 00:34:42.639 those modern factory environments are really fascinating. And isn't 543 00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:45.960 this Oulu and North Ostrobothnia region -- there's 544 00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:49.760 quite a lot of really sharp people around, in this same kind of scene, 545 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:53.839 there are smart people to be found, and you'd think everyone 546 00:34:53.839 --> 00:34:57.200 -- if they're not competing directly with each other -- would still share 547 00:34:57.200 --> 00:35:01.000 ideas a bit too. Yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah, yes. And 548 00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:04.359 a lot really is shared, even among pretty close competitors -- 549 00:35:04.359 --> 00:35:07.280 news and updates, those who aren't directly in exactly the same 550 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:11.720 market, among these industrial players. And take, for instance, 551 00:35:11.720 --> 00:35:14.119 Lapwall, right next to our factory -- it's a really 552 00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:17.480 interesting concept of theirs -- there's still an analogy to 553 00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:20.599 our own operations, even though they're an element manufacturer, and they've 554 00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:25.599 been really smart about conceptualizing exactly this -- that they 555 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:28.480 share out design guidelines, so that you can design the 556 00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:31.839 building using their own building-block-style system, 557 00:35:31.839 --> 00:35:35.720 so, in practice -- it's great, it's really great, and 558 00:35:35.720 --> 00:35:39.520 it improves the construction industry's otherwise weak 559 00:35:39.520 --> 00:35:42.920 productivity growth -- that modularity. I, back 560 00:35:42.920 --> 00:35:47.720 at one point, many iterations ago, looked at Evac, which makes 561 00:35:47.720 --> 00:35:52.079 -- it got sold off recently, at a high price, to foreign owners, which is a bit of a shame in these cases, because 562 00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:55.200 they end up going that way after a certain point, but at the time it was really 563 00:35:55.200 --> 00:36:00.040 good, this, in cruise-ship toilet technology -- 564 00:36:00.040 --> 00:36:03.800 the modular approach in those solutions. And then maybe, as 565 00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:07.960 a cautionary example, there's Lehto -- they built a really nice concept 566 00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:11.640 around that modular construction, but then there was 567 00:36:11.640 --> 00:36:14.960 some poor execution. But still, the basic foundation -- 568 00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:17.480 that kind of modular approach, say if you now do this 569 00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:21.720 bathroom efficiently by standardizing it a bit, you get 570 00:36:21.720 --> 00:36:24.960 efficiency gains, for sure. Definitely, definitely. And Lehto was 571 00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:28.640 genuinely great in residential construction -- really strong momentum 572 00:36:28.640 --> 00:36:32.319 in that work. It's a shame the outcome was what it was, but 573 00:36:32.319 --> 00:36:35.040 it wasn't their residential-construction expertise that was the problem -- they were 574 00:36:35.040 --> 00:36:38.319 really, really skilled at that. Other issues came up -- maybe they 575 00:36:38.319 --> 00:36:43.839 expanded too aggressively into other 576 00:36:43.839 --> 00:36:47.480 areas that they no longer had a handle on. But that 577 00:36:47.480 --> 00:36:51.000 residential-construction business was a genuinely great thing. And we too 578 00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:55.000 did the same thing ourselves -- say, we outsourced the bathroom units, those room 579 00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:57.760 solutions, and tried to standardize them so they'd always be the same, so that 580 00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:02.359 you get certain production benefits, so we get 581 00:37:02.359 --> 00:37:06.119 efficiency gains. But this is already quite far along -- 582 00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:10.000 it's already being done -- there are these bathroom-module manufacturers who 583 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:12.640 specialize purely in that, and can 584 00:37:12.640 --> 00:37:15.760 bring that into residential construction too. It'll be really interesting to see 585 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:19.319 when that market eventually starts picking up again, what 586 00:37:19.319 --> 00:37:23.520 has been developed during today's quiet period. Because surely 587 00:37:23.520 --> 00:37:27.079 that side of things is definitely moving forward too. 588 00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:30.680 Yeah. I should actually get in touch with those Paasikivi people. They had 589 00:37:30.680 --> 00:37:36.839 this sprout/seedling business, and then those pipe-related things too, so 590 00:37:36.839 --> 00:37:40.920 in Finland there's actually a lot, when you think about it, of this kind of 591 00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:44.400 innovative expertise -- there has been, and still is, in those kinds of 592 00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:48.280 technical fields. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yeah, 593 00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:52.240 that's true. For us it adds its own particular twist to that 594 00:37:52.240 --> 00:37:55.280 whole thing -- if you think about residential construction, or 595 00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:58.640 single-family home building, they still have the same standard -- you always have to 596 00:37:58.640 --> 00:38:01.319 build the building according to certain standards. But then 597 00:38:01.319 --> 00:38:04.480 on the cottage side, things are considerably freer, and then there's exactly 598 00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:07.359 this: a significant share of owners use it only for a few months 599 00:38:07.359 --> 00:38:10.240 -- most cottage owners use theirs just for those few months 600 00:38:10.240 --> 00:38:13.960 a year, so there's a huge amount of variation in that, in terms of 601 00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:18.280 level of amenities -- so a genuinely bare-bones summer cottage, 602 00:38:18.280 --> 00:38:21.760 you could go with, say, just a log frame 603 00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:25.680 and gravity-based ventilation, and no running water or electricity. That's 604 00:38:25.680 --> 00:38:29.040 -- then you've got an outdoor sauna, all the moisture management, and everything is 605 00:38:29.040 --> 00:38:32.560 really simple. And then, as the complete opposite of that, 606 00:38:32.560 --> 00:38:36.079 there's a purely second-home-type solution, and 607 00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:40.480 in between there's a huge amount of variation, which makes this 608 00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:43.800 on one hand interesting, on the other challenging. And we've 609 00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:47.640 managed pretty well -- we're able to vary the equipment level quite a bit, 610 00:38:47.640 --> 00:38:50.319 but for example from a production-loading standpoint, that's also quite 611 00:38:50.319 --> 00:38:53.640 -- if you think about it, one building might get 612 00:38:53.640 --> 00:38:56.560 tiling, bathroom tiling, and that kind of 613 00:38:56.560 --> 00:38:59.440 work in a big proportion relative to the building's size, and another one 614 00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:01.680 gets none of it at all -- so you understand what that means 615 00:39:01.680 --> 00:39:05.880 on an industrial line -- drying times and everything like that. So it 616 00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:08.880 takes quite a bit of juggling sometimes to make it all work. 617 00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:13.680 Well, let's think about this now -- let's come back to this, thinking about 618 00:39:13.680 --> 00:39:18.720 the second home there in Heinola -- or rather, in Sysmä. So, there, 619 00:39:18.720 --> 00:39:24.160 uh, indeed, these cousins have taken care of the 620 00:39:24.160 --> 00:39:27.720 road and utility infrastructure in a way where it already runs to one or two cottages, 621 00:39:27.720 --> 00:39:30.920 the road, and of course they maintain it, 622 00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:34.160 then there are a couple of options for using the other cousin's 623 00:39:34.160 --> 00:39:37.720 road, and from both it's still under 100 meters 624 00:39:37.720 --> 00:39:43.119 to the shoreline. There's a bit of pine forest there, but 625 00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:47.319 you could probably clear it and sell that at a profit. And then indeed, 626 00:39:47.319 --> 00:39:52.240 both of them have shoreline -- one has a rocky shore, and 627 00:39:52.240 --> 00:39:57.200 the other has this kind of peaty, organic shoreline. Yeah, but then that 30 [square meters] 628 00:39:57.200 --> 00:40:00.440 sounds a bit stingy after all. So then, would it 629 00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:04.520 be the typical 60 square meters, and then again the sauna is 630 00:40:04.520 --> 00:40:07.800 of course a question there too -- is it the main building and 631 00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:11.720 sauna building, or something like that -- could you sketch this out for me a bit? 632 00:40:11.720 --> 00:40:14.599 Well, first you'd need to start from what kind of use it's meant for -- 633 00:40:14.599 --> 00:40:18.160 will it, say, for example, be used in winter -- 634 00:40:18.160 --> 00:40:23.000 well, yeah, maybe, of course -- I'm the type who goes for maximum, really, 635 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:25.480 always, before I start a project like this, it's always like: 636 00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:29.560 of course it's year-round, of course it has every treat, and 637 00:40:29.560 --> 00:40:32.640 honestly a bit over the top, if you're listening -- but for that summer-only 638 00:40:32.640 --> 00:40:36.680 spec, you can imagine me going full maximum on it. Of course. But 639 00:40:36.680 --> 00:40:40.040 that's a totally different kind of solution -- take, for example, this 640 00:40:40.040 --> 00:40:43.760 one we have right now, say, in production -- this 60-square-meter cottage where 641 00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:47.520 it has its own bathroom, and then, say, two bedrooms 642 00:40:47.520 --> 00:40:50.440 and a big combined living-room-kitchen, and 643 00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:54.000 that kind of thing -- so it's practically made of two modules, 644 00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:56.760 installation on-site takes one or two days, so it arrives completely 645 00:40:56.760 --> 00:41:00.000 finished. Then there'd be a sauna, and you'd just put in the door for it, because the sauna 646 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:03.040 at a cottage always has to be a separate 647 00:41:03.040 --> 00:41:08.160 outdoor sauna, of course -- so could you fit that within the 30 [square meters]? Of course this 648 00:41:08.160 --> 00:41:11.560 -- 30 is too much if there's already that 60-square-meter main building. 649 00:41:11.560 --> 00:41:13.960 Well, if you have -- yeah, but how much building rights do you actually have there? 650 00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:18.280 Uh, well, now you asked a tough one, but it's, in a way, already been 651 00:41:18.280 --> 00:41:22.839 set in stone -- those building rights were applied for, as far as I know they're 652 00:41:22.839 --> 00:41:26.720 in force. I don't really know, but there's -- it's quite a large area, 653 00:41:26.720 --> 00:41:30.480 and, well, a caveat here -- hopefully, if the relatives aren't listening 654 00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:34.800 too closely to this -- I'm not actually the owner of this yet. So 655 00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:38.280 it's small, but still, same thing here -- 656 00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:41.680 the cousins have built there, sort of gradually improving things over time, 657 00:41:41.680 --> 00:41:43.520 so this isn't 658 00:41:43.520 --> 00:41:47.520 -- it's really just a matter of negotiation. But that 30-ish you mentioned -- 659 00:41:47.520 --> 00:41:50.800 the law's premise is that it's a utility building under 30 square meters. 660 00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:53.440 So if you're putting a main building on the plot, 661 00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:54.599 meaning we're talking about 662 00:41:54.599 --> 00:41:57.640 a cottage building -- whether it's 30 square meters or 663 00:41:57.640 --> 00:42:02.119 60, it always needs a permit, because it's a leisure residence, 664 00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:06.079 and there's been a lot of misunderstanding about this, and 665 00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:09.160 what determines whether it's for residential use or not -- there's 666 00:42:09.160 --> 00:42:13.440 no direct law on that as such, but it was clarified during the 667 00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:17.480 law-drafting process, from quite a high level, that if the building has 668 00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:19.319 a fixed stove, mm, 669 00:42:19.319 --> 00:42:22.839 then it's considered a building intended for residential use. 670 00:42:22.839 --> 00:42:26.040 If it doesn't have one, then under certain conditions it could be a garden building, but 671 00:42:26.040 --> 00:42:29.880 that's not written in any law as such. But this was just so that consumers could 672 00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:33.559 assess whether they need to apply for a permit or not. But that's roughly 673 00:42:33.559 --> 00:42:37.640 how it goes. So in principle, if you had that [30-square-meter] cottage there, 674 00:42:37.640 --> 00:42:41.040 you'd need to apply for a permit for it, but for the garden sauna you wouldn't need a permit. 675 00:42:41.040 --> 00:42:45.760 It's completely permit-free, and you can build it -- as long as you stay under 30 square meters, and 676 00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:49.440 as we were discussing, that's actually a pretty big deal -- it would be 677 00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:52.839 practically a beachside guest cottage without any of these 678 00:42:52.839 --> 00:42:55.559 stove installations. Right, right, right. But 679 00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:58.559 that would actually be really good if you think of a kind of two-section layout, 680 00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:01.720 with a sauna on one side and then a living area, and then when 681 00:43:01.720 --> 00:43:04.599 friends come to visit, there's space for them there, and then there's 682 00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:09.440 the main cottage building there. Hey, great -- Sami, let's go, lunch is -- Mauno the dachshund -- 683 00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:13.079 -- ask your wife along too, a joint lunch, a shared lunch -- 684 00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:18.400 yeah, yeah, well -- unfortunately she had the flu around then, so 685 00:43:18.400 --> 00:43:22.800 but yeah, she doesn't normally watch these episodes anyway, but maybe this is 686 00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:27.559 an exception then -- some sales work has been done here 687 00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:29.000 on her behalf, yeah. 688 00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:33.640 But maybe let's take, to close this out, a quick glimpse at 689 00:43:33.640 --> 00:43:37.440 digitalization. And we do have mutual friends, 690 00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:41.960 for example this Mikko Alasaarela, and with this agent concept, 691 00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:46.160 he's now digitalizing everything with these agent farms. So could you give a quick glimpse 692 00:43:46.160 --> 00:43:51.960 into your own IT infrastructure a bit here, 693 00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:54.640 and whether you have thoughts on that. And I think we could save 694 00:43:54.640 --> 00:43:57.599 the deeper vision talk for the inner-circle segment. 695 00:43:57.599 --> 00:44:02.559 Okay. Okay. Well, yeah. I actually have to say, while listening to this, 696 00:44:02.559 --> 00:44:06.240 -- was it summer, when I listened to Mikko Alasaarela here 697 00:44:06.240 --> 00:44:12.319 as a guest -- and he talked about this productivity leap with AI assistance 698 00:44:12.319 --> 00:44:15.880 and talked about these agent farms, and I was a bit -- I'm still 699 00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:19.160 a bit lost when it comes to that world, so I listened to 700 00:44:19.160 --> 00:44:22.319 that whole thing -- it's such an interesting topic. And we've since been 701 00:44:22.319 --> 00:44:26.160 cooking up a bit of collaboration with them too, but 702 00:44:26.160 --> 00:44:30.960 yeah, you might quickly think, well, surely AI wouldn't 703 00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:36.800 help a hand-craft workshop like this -- can it even make use of AI? But 704 00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:41.119 when we sat down with them, we arrived at the 705 00:44:41.119 --> 00:44:46.079 conclusion that there's a genuinely shocking number of things you can 706 00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:48.280 use to improve productivity 707 00:44:48.280 --> 00:44:51.960 with the help of AI. So we really, we really 708 00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:55.480 do intend to invest seriously in that going forward, 709 00:44:55.480 --> 00:44:59.359 and, well, I have one 710 00:44:59.359 --> 00:45:03.640 friend whose wife is an architect, and she started 711 00:45:03.640 --> 00:45:07.520 coding a new architecture database, so it's 712 00:45:07.520 --> 00:45:11.839 sort of a small customer database, or some kind of 713 00:45:11.839 --> 00:45:16.880 customer-history management thing, and 714 00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:21.319 sort of profiling, persona types, and marketing 715 00:45:21.319 --> 00:45:24.520 integration -- it's lightweight work, and you can really go very deep 716 00:45:24.520 --> 00:45:29.559 into those processes with it. Definitely -- so digitalization, 717 00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:32.440 actually, combined with AI on top of that, yeah, recently 718 00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:36.040 one thing I've concretely noticed is how 719 00:45:36.040 --> 00:45:39.119 -- the kitchen design, for instance -- with us too, all the designs, we can 720 00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:44.720 have a sales rep draw up the design and it's immediately with the customer in 3D 721 00:45:44.720 --> 00:45:49.160 -- they go and look at it: ah, this is like this, maybe that space could be, you know, 722 00:45:49.160 --> 00:45:53.119 completely realistic. It's an incredible pace of development, how 723 00:45:53.119 --> 00:45:57.119 -- yeah, and so, in a way, you already see the future direction right now, 724 00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:01.119 so it's not just some illustrative rendering, but really something built specifically for you -- 725 00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:06.680 say, for that Sysmä plot, sort of -- I mean, this isn't -- this isn't quite 726 00:46:06.680 --> 00:46:10.079 reality yet, but it'll probably come soon -- so if you go to the plot, 727 00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:13.040 you can think, this will go there, and you look out from that window, 728 00:46:13.040 --> 00:46:16.720 yeah, yeah, definitely. And for something like that you could use, like, a QR code, so 729 00:46:16.720 --> 00:46:21.200 scan it with the camera, model the space, and then create your own 730 00:46:21.200 --> 00:46:24.680 virtual world of it, and then you can go ahead and sketch out the 731 00:46:24.680 --> 00:46:28.559 cottage in it. I do believe in that, and it doesn't even have to be very expensive. 732 00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:33.000 Definitely not. No. Yeah. But maybe we could 733 00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:37.440 save that for the inner-circle episode. But maybe, now that we started on 734 00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:42.079 the political note, that good things have been done here, like this 30-square-meter 735 00:46:42.079 --> 00:46:47.000 exemption -- would you still have some message for the current government, 736 00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:51.520 and especially for the next one, which looks, unfortunately, or 737 00:46:51.520 --> 00:46:56.119 happily, depending on your point of view -- it'll be blue-red [center-right/left coalition] -- what kind of 738 00:46:56.119 --> 00:47:00.599 things could our public authorities perhaps do on this front of yours? Well, I don't 739 00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:05.200 think I'll start criticizing, because in my 740 00:47:05.200 --> 00:47:08.440 opinion the reform that's happened was really great, and 741 00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:10.920 I think, hopefully, this encourages 742 00:47:10.920 --> 00:47:16.040 lawmakers to cut some bureaucracy, to cut some regulation, 743 00:47:16.040 --> 00:47:20.760 even from the harder end, because that doesn't necessarily 744 00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:23.400 lead to everything turning into a free-for-all. Finns are still 745 00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:27.960 a pretty rule-abiding people. We're a pretty, pretty 746 00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:32.800 rule-raised people. So, the fact that 747 00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:38.040 -- that was a bold, big change, and there was 748 00:47:38.040 --> 00:47:42.160 a lot of scaremongering, saying you can't deregulate something like that, 749 00:47:42.160 --> 00:47:45.359 that these are already sizeable buildings, and it'll turn into a completely wild 750 00:47:45.359 --> 00:47:49.520 Wild West. And well, of course, there's only about a year of history behind us now, but 751 00:47:49.520 --> 00:47:53.640 there's no sign at all of it running wild -- quite 752 00:47:53.640 --> 00:47:57.760 the opposite: vitality has increased, everyone wins. So my message is just 753 00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:01.400 more of this. Yeah. Well -- there is something, in my opinion, 754 00:48:01.400 --> 00:48:06.160 like that AVI [Regional State Administrative Agency] fee of 25.50, it could definitely be walked back down a bit lower 755 00:48:06.160 --> 00:48:09.559 -- because, well, all these things that raise prices 756 00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:13.280 reduce demand. That's just an economic-theory fact -- that's how it 757 00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:16.960 is. Remember, girls and boys: the more something is taxed, the less 758 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:19.000 you get of it. Yeah, that does tend to be roughly how it goes, 759 00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:20.960 so, yeah. 760 00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:24.280 But then again I do understand that the overall situation for Finland's 761 00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:27.040 economy is so challenging that good advice here 762 00:48:27.040 --> 00:48:32.040 comes at a cost. That's already what you hear out there. But anyway, I suggest that 763 00:48:32.040 --> 00:48:37.839 Veli-Matti Kurkela, let's actually go to that lunch to think through these 764 00:48:37.839 --> 00:48:42.640 cottage matters. But before that, let's do this short inner-circle discussion about 765 00:48:42.640 --> 00:48:45.880 making use of AI. Thanks for the visit. 766 00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:49.040 Yes. Thank you very much.