1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:05,120 Alright, welcome to the Neuvottelija channel. I have Veli-Matti Kurkela 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:09,200 as my guest. You came all the way from — is it Pyhäntä? 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,960 No, I actually came from Oulu, even further north. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,400 Ah, okay. Right. But don't you have several locations? So you're Salvos's 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,119 CEO? Yes, yes. Well, in Pyhäntä 6 00:00:18,119 --> 00:00:21,800 we have our factory, but then we do have offices. We have them 7 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,359 a bit all around Finland. We have some of our administration in Kempele. 8 00:00:24,359 --> 00:00:29,240 Right — mainly just to cheer you up, I brought out 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,640 this Tappara mug. Now we're really twisting the knife in the wound, yes, 10 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,840 yes. Tappara keeps steaming along — from an Oulu perspective a little 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:43,480 too well. It's wonderful, wonderful! But our topic is the construction industry's 12 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:48,680 distress — though couldn't you say that your business, this kind of garden and 13 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,440 leisure and summer cottage construction, isn't quite as dreadful — but 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:57,680 could you share a couple of observations about the construction sector in Finland? 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:02,399 Yeah, well, construction has really taken a beating in recent years, and 16 00:01:02,399 --> 00:01:06,520 the market there has been carved up anew — there's been an absolutely staggering number 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:11,080 of bankruptcies. Especially single-family home and residential construction is 18 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,200 still in a pretty difficult situation, but then on the other hand 19 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,720 there are certain sectors — road and infrastructure construction seems to be going quite well, 20 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:25,119 and it sounds like commercial premises and these wellness facilities 21 00:01:25,119 --> 00:01:29,280 are doing more or less okay. And then of course, in our market, 22 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,720 garden buildings, and in leisure-time buildings too a certain 23 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,600 segment, are still, let's say, okay — so the situation is somewhat 24 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,040 polarized, let's put it that way. 25 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:46,240 Yeah, that's how it is. So everything's just awful. I mean, as someone who owns 26 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,719 an apartment in central Helsinki, it's a bit nasty to look at that minus 20 27 00:01:50,719 --> 00:01:54,840 percent we've seen here. But since it hasn't been realized, it 28 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,759 doesn't affect my life. This episode really is made in commercial collaboration 29 00:01:58,759 --> 00:02:04,399 with Salvos. But let's discuss that a bit more, then, 30 00:02:04,399 --> 00:02:09,959 from a personal angle. Over the years I've been having discussions with the board — that is, my wife — 31 00:02:09,959 --> 00:02:14,160 about whether we should have our own summer cottage too. So 32 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:18,560 the situation we have is — greetings to my mother, by the way — 33 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:24,920 there's a zoned waterfront lot over in Sysmä. There are a couple of 34 00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:27,840 cousins' summer cottages already standing there, and okay, 35 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,920 it's about — is it 2 hours 40 minutes — so I suppose it wouldn't be 36 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:35,280 a completely unbearable trip. You probably see situations like this 37 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,040 quite a lot — so how do you tackle something like that? 38 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:42,280 Well yes, I can certainly say that I can take your wife's 39 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:47,879 side. Yeah, probably — even Mauno the dachshund would like this. 40 00:02:47,879 --> 00:02:52,080 Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. And maybe, well, yes — 41 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:58,120 especially now that there's been migration toward these urban centers -- I mean 42 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,840 housing is concentrating and the countryside is emptying out, and that trend seems 43 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:07,720 like it's just continuing. So there's this thing where there's an inheritance 44 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,760 plot, or there's an old family homestead, 45 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,360 if you have good memories and you'd want to build something there, 46 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,200 or, let's say, there might already be a cottage there, or an old detached house, 47 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:24,280 or something like that. But that distance of yours is actually pretty normal -- 48 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,799 I don't remember exactly. That cottage barometer came out 49 00:03:26,799 --> 00:03:30,920 from the Council of State just recently, and I think it actually defined the 50 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:35,000 average distance to the cottage. I don't remember -- it probably wasn't quite that long, but 51 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,560 it was, I believe, well over 100 km on average, if I recall, 52 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,959 so we're well within, let's say, the margin, so to speak. 53 00:03:42,959 --> 00:03:46,879 Yeah -- Petri Roininen, who's been my guest the most times, 54 00:03:46,879 --> 00:03:50,280 well, I've joked a bit that my idea of a Northern Finland holiday is 55 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:56,200 going to the Flamingo Hotel in Vantaa. But, well, I am a bit of a 56 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,360 village nature person, so to speak, and I do have good memories from there, but 57 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,120 then during COVID there was this huge boom, and back then it kind of 58 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,920 tempted me -- wouldn't it be great to do this kind of second-location work 59 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:12,079 out there in nature. But hasn't that trend faded a bit -- 60 00:04:12,079 --> 00:04:17,040 at least a little, that trend has turned downward a bit. Well, maybe from its very 61 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,639 peak, but if you think about it, when it comes to living -- 62 00:04:20,639 --> 00:04:25,759 living in growth centers, these days, when the per-square-meter construction costs are 63 00:04:25,759 --> 00:04:30,120 genuinely still really, really high, and 64 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,400 consumers still prefer to live in the centers, 65 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,600 want to live close to services, and then they're willing 66 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,479 to compromise on square meters, and then things like these extra little conveniences 67 00:04:40,479 --> 00:04:44,360 are pure luxury in a growth center, so then as a counterbalance to that, 68 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,240 the payoff is that you get outside the growth center, 69 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,360 so that you have your own beach or something like that -- these days that's quite a 70 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,759 luxury thing, yeah. And there's just a bit of a 71 00:04:54,759 --> 00:04:59,600 peaty, humus-type bottom there, but I suppose you can dredge those too. And -- well, maybe 72 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:04,120 we'll get to that 30-square-meter rule later, but there I had a friend 73 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:08,960 and board member and owner, Petter Fredman -- he, in one 74 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:14,080 earlier episode this year -- it hasn't even been a year yet, but 75 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,639 he was raving about northern Finland, and then I happened to read that Helsingin Sanomat 76 00:05:18,639 --> 00:05:22,840 article about the Rovaniemi Airbnb dispute, so maybe there's 77 00:05:22,840 --> 00:05:27,960 maybe something to that too, apparently -- when people want more usage efficiency out of these apartments and 78 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:32,000 then maybe bring in garden buildings and other things too. But at the same 79 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:37,080 time our decision-makers don't really know what kind of 80 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:41,360 laws to put in place for these. Have you looked into that? Well, yeah, that's of course 81 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,520 a bit related to my own question -- it's more about the accommodation business 82 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,120 not quite directly about the cottage business itself, but yeah, 83 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,440 that's -- well, the situation in Rovaniemi is quite peculiar. I mean, 84 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,160 the same situation exists in bigger cities too, generally, 85 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,000 when it comes to short-term rentals, but in Rovaniemi it's really 86 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,520 escalated, because the problem there, as I understand it, is that 87 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,360 the tourism business is so seasonal -- let's say it's 88 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,440 four months, say, but that's still such a short time that if 89 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,280 you look at it from a hotel developer's perspective, then, because of that 90 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:15,319 season, it's not really sensible to build. And then again, 91 00:06:15,319 --> 00:06:20,759 on the other hand, no hotel capacity gets built, which then leads to 92 00:06:20,759 --> 00:06:23,759 these resort-type alternatives being used instead, which have of course 93 00:06:23,759 --> 00:06:29,520 increased a lot. So someone buys a piece of land and there 94 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:34,039 invests in these separate small cottage-type units, sort of 95 00:06:34,039 --> 00:06:38,160 studio-apartment-sized or a bit bigger with panoramic windows, and then there's some 96 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:43,000 bigger -- say some restaurant-and-spa facility there 97 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,120 where people go to eat and so on. So that's another 98 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,560 concept -- a whole story in itself as to why it's really taken off, but 99 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,039 even that capacity has grown too slowly relative to visitor numbers, 100 00:06:55,039 --> 00:06:58,199 which somehow leads to a situation where, since demand is greater than 101 00:06:58,199 --> 00:07:01,039 supply, it drives up short-term rental rates. Mm. 102 00:07:01,039 --> 00:07:05,080 which of course, in an extreme case, leads to there not being 103 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,759 enough other capacity there, and then of course there are also these 104 00:07:08,759 --> 00:07:13,000 side effects -- if you live in the same apartment block that has 25 units, 105 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,319 of which 20 are used for short-term rental, that can make your life quite 106 00:07:16,319 --> 00:07:20,759 unsettled, which partly disturbs 107 00:07:20,759 --> 00:07:23,039 the residents. And then, on the other hand, you also run into 108 00:07:23,039 --> 00:07:26,720 zoning regulations and things like that -- whether you're even allowed to run this kind of 109 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,160 accommodation business there. These are really awkward, difficult 110 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:31,639 yeah, difficult situations, and there it's now 111 00:07:31,639 --> 00:07:37,599 threatening to escalate quite a bit in Rovaniemi. Yeah, and I was recently 112 00:07:37,599 --> 00:07:42,199 I always do a long trip every couple of years, usually a bit around Norway, 113 00:07:42,199 --> 00:07:48,680 hiking, and up there in the northeast, [unclear] -- 114 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:54,599 in northwestern Finland -- actually, this is embarrassing, I still have to admit, I just -- 115 00:07:54,599 --> 00:07:59,080 well, anyway, we traveled through there, right around the Levi 116 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,919 area, and there was exactly the kind of thing you mentioned -- it's sort of 117 00:08:01,919 --> 00:08:05,800 a hub like that, and then cottages around it. But isn't this -- by the way, isn't 'salvos' itself 118 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,919 some kind of terrible log-construction term? Yeah, it's like, well, 119 00:08:10,919 --> 00:08:15,840 logs need to be joined together at the corner somehow. There are 120 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,520 dovetail joints, cross corners, and then there's a miter corner and all sorts. So 121 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:22,800 that joint is called a 'salvos' [a corner-notch log joint]. 122 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,919 Yeah, folk tradition. Right, right. But doesn't this concept, in principle, 123 00:08:26,919 --> 00:08:32,479 fit that too a little? It's sort of like -- well, I don't know, at Vierumäki 124 00:08:32,479 --> 00:08:35,440 I visit sometimes. I'm not very athletic, but in a way it's 125 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,360 a nice sort of cottage-village thing too. Yeah, yeah, 126 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,519 yeah, yeah, yeah. And we, this year, 127 00:08:40,519 --> 00:08:44,600 actually just -- well, delivered -- a 40-accommodation-module 128 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,120 complex -- or rather, we delivered the modules, it wasn't 129 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,720 built on-site. That's the more precise term, but anyway, 130 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,920 to Ounasvaara in Rovaniemi, for this kind of use, and 131 00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:02,279 yeah, exactly. Well, this year -- last year we had 600 modules 132 00:09:02,279 --> 00:09:07,000 come out of the factory finished. We have quite good capacity to make 133 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,200 solutions like that, so we were able to deliver -- if I remember correctly, 134 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,480 it was maybe at the end of March when we reached the agreement with this 135 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,640 client, and then it had to be delivered by the end of October, so that's a pretty 136 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,680 fast pace. And we made it in time -- it worked out. Mm. 137 00:09:20,680 --> 00:09:25,040 But that's exactly the point there -- the investment 138 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,079 in that room capacity, compared to when you build 139 00:09:28,079 --> 00:09:29,600 a hotel, mm, 140 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,560 the per-square-meter cost -- the return on capital is completely different 141 00:09:33,560 --> 00:09:39,320 in this kind of less heavily built space, which nevertheless 142 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,079 is a very luxurious, good solution. 143 00:09:42,079 --> 00:09:45,240 So that's the point -- that's exactly why it tends to go toward this resort model, especially 144 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,240 given a season like this, toward this kind of resort-type approach instead of that hotel 145 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,279 investment. Of course, one solution could be that 146 00:09:53,279 --> 00:09:55,920 up in Lapland too, I've thought about this a lot -- how 147 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,959 you could get -- because right now winter is the big thing there, but 148 00:09:59,959 --> 00:10:04,160 Finland's nightless night [midnight sun] is quite a unique case, especially since Central Europe 149 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,000 seems to be having pretty hot summers. Mm. 150 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,000 so there's already some amount of foreign tourism just because of that, since 151 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,279 conditions there are humane. Yeah. That autumn-foliage ['ruska'] tourism is totally 152 00:10:13,279 --> 00:10:16,240 top-notch. That's exactly when the midges have died off. It's sort of 153 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,760 the perfect, perfect moment. I haven't 154 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,399 actually been there during summer, during the worst 155 00:10:22,399 --> 00:10:26,079 black-fly season -- I haven't visited then -- but I do hear 156 00:10:26,079 --> 00:10:30,800 some stories about it, so that's maybe a small downside. 157 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:35,320 Yeah, but that autumn foliage tourism is at least totally top-notch, and it 158 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:40,440 is definitely growing. But actually what interested me there was that production model. Maybe we could 159 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:45,920 play that a bit in the background here. So in Petter Fredman's 160 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:50,839 video, this was shown. We had set up these sort of 161 00:10:50,839 --> 00:10:55,639 robotics for coffee filters and things like that. But isn't that kind of 162 00:10:55,639 --> 00:11:00,160 modular leisure construction of yours probably -- 163 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:04,399 sorry, this is around when he was a guest -- sorry, this question jumps around a bit, but 164 00:11:04,399 --> 00:11:08,480 I just thought of that Lapland concept -- those were like Lego-type things. 165 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,600 Don't you have a bit of the same kind of setup? Well, yeah, with the 166 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,600 difference that we finish the buildings completely, but 167 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,800 it's the same in the sense that this industrial manufacturing is 168 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:22,079 interesting, because it's been tried, and it's been 169 00:11:22,079 --> 00:11:24,839 developed -- it's been developed a lot in recent 170 00:11:24,839 --> 00:11:28,360 years, I think, but the challenge there is exactly this: 171 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,800 logistics -- if we're talking about bigger buildings, like 172 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,440 a residential solution for your own home, 173 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,160 some of that is done -- they're brought in ready-made, or 174 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,160 ready-made modules are brought in. That's been developed, but there's exactly this 175 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,279 challenge -- the logistics. Logistics are challenging and really 176 00:11:43,279 --> 00:11:46,600 expensive, so the industrial-manufacturing 177 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,360 cost benefit gets eaten up by that logistics, and then still you 178 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,000 end up having to do on-site construction anyway. But then when 179 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,079 we move to leisure construction, if we think about, say, 180 00:11:57,079 --> 00:12:01,639 the average floor area of new leisure buildings, based on Statistics Finland's 181 00:12:01,639 --> 00:12:05,320 data, was something like 60 square meters. Mm, which for us too is kind of 182 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,760 our so-called 183 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,320 bread-and-butter work in cottage buildings. Yeah. 184 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,800 So that's a solution that can, in turn, be industrially 185 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,079 manufactured quite well. And then of course, when we connect modules, 186 00:12:17,079 --> 00:12:20,000 we have the ability to join them in a properly sealed way, so we can 187 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:25,639 combine two spaces into one, and then we get those 188 00:12:25,639 --> 00:12:29,240 parts small enough that we can transport them 189 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,279 cost-effectively too. So we get the benefit of industrial manufacturing, and then 190 00:12:32,279 --> 00:12:38,040 the transport as well. And if you think again about 191 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,120 traditional single-family home construction, prefab building has 192 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:45,199 been around there for a long time. But move-in-ready suppliers, in turn, aren't 193 00:12:45,199 --> 00:12:48,480 hugely interested in -- sorry, this leisure-home construction -- for the 194 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,279 reason that there are actually a couple of reasons. They're quite small, 195 00:12:52,279 --> 00:12:55,360 and then leisure construction is located out 196 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,279 outside the growth centers. So you have to haul materials and 197 00:12:59,279 --> 00:13:04,639 labor out to the countryside, the regions, which is really expensive, 198 00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:07,839 and so it hasn't really been made cost-effective that way, so 199 00:13:07,839 --> 00:13:10,560 this industry has traditionally been pretty conservative -- it's been about 200 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:13,959 traditional materials supply, where materials are delivered and the customer themselves 201 00:13:13,959 --> 00:13:18,320 then organizes the construction, either themselves or through subcontractors, or however 202 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,839 they organize it. So this has really been fertile ground 203 00:13:22,839 --> 00:13:25,880 for this kind of industrial manufacturing, which is what we've gone into -- we 204 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,839 -- but we started this first with 205 00:13:28,839 --> 00:13:33,079 garden buildings, garden saunas, these kinds of storehouse-type buildings, and from there 206 00:13:33,079 --> 00:13:35,240 we then quickly started developing 207 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,800 cottage solutions too -- this has changed. So I 208 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:42,320 remember -- greetings to my mother's brother, uncle Pate -- I remember 209 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,920 in my childhood, out there, it was completely built by hand from logs, sort of 210 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:51,440 put up as a square. Their cottage, out there -- it's still 211 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,000 there, and I remember how the guys just hauled those 212 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,480 long logs there themselves, and then some help came along, and 213 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,199 they were dragged around the cottage site with a tractor, but 214 00:14:03,199 --> 00:14:06,639 of course today's people couldn't handle anything like that, no 215 00:14:06,639 --> 00:14:10,040 way -- you'd have to be quite 216 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,320 Rambo to build something like that yourself. 217 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,240 But isn't this -- couldn't you say it's actually become 218 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,399 incredibly easy now. And in a way, hasn't the municipalities' 219 00:14:19,399 --> 00:14:23,560 attitude improved too -- that the zoning processes and 220 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:29,000 systems have become more sensible -- not to sound too encouraging as a word choice, but 221 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,480 it's not that big a deal, even though many people fear it'll turn into 222 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,959 financial ruin and a long project where every budget overruns. 223 00:14:36,959 --> 00:14:41,120 Of course that can always happen in construction, but it is 224 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,440 reasonably easy, this kind of leisure-home 225 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,880 -- well, if you think about it, today we're able to 226 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:53,519 -- part of our own service concept, in marketing terms, a genuinely turnkey 227 00:14:53,519 --> 00:14:56,199 concept -- we apply for, say, a leisure home permit, which 228 00:14:56,199 --> 00:14:59,160 is still subject to a permit -- we apply for the permit on the customer's behalf and take care of 229 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,800 the necessary groundwork, foundations, and deliver a completely finished building. 230 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,279 The average delivery time from order 231 00:15:06,279 --> 00:15:10,959 to handover is roughly about half a year, so that's the timeframe, 232 00:15:10,959 --> 00:15:14,480 and all the costs are defined in advance. So that product 233 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,160 -- this manufacturing approach has brought that. But imagine, for example, a situation 234 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,320 where you started building out there in Heinola 235 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,800 a cottage, and tried to organize it constantly from here. 236 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:27,639 Then, say, materials get taken to the site, and this too is 237 00:15:27,639 --> 00:15:30,399 a challenge -- this material management. If you think, say, that you 238 00:15:30,399 --> 00:15:33,800 have a felt roof going in there, you need to order enough of that felt, 239 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,800 well, Heinola doesn't sound too remote yet, 240 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,560 but you still have to order enough of that 241 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,560 felt, say, in such a quantity that it doesn't run out, because if 242 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,240 it runs out, that's an insane cost. Then if you have to go 243 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,160 in the best case hundreds of kilometers to a hardware store to get that 244 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,040 material, that's expensive, so you end up ordering 245 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,480 extra of it just so it doesn't run out. 246 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,399 Yeah. And then there's the question of how cost-effective the whole thing is, and 247 00:15:57,399 --> 00:16:00,160 then also how much waste gets generated and how 248 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,880 problematic that is in that sense. So -- 249 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,199 yeah, in that sense, if we think about our own operations, we're 250 00:16:08,199 --> 00:16:11,759 still able to -- well, take that roll of felt: when it runs out, we cut 251 00:16:11,759 --> 00:16:14,480 the roll right where it's 252 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,680 enough for this building, and then continue with the next one. It's 253 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,759 just so much more efficient and handy with an industrial process 254 00:16:20,759 --> 00:16:23,920 to do that. That distance really 255 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,959 often makes organizing leisure-home construction really challenging, if you don't 256 00:16:26,959 --> 00:16:29,639 get it delivered fully finished. There might already be 257 00:16:29,639 --> 00:16:33,079 cottage-road infrastructure there, but in our 258 00:16:33,079 --> 00:16:37,800 situation, everything would already be done, so in that sense 259 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:39,959 it sounds pretty scarily easy. 260 00:16:39,959 --> 00:16:42,680 Just great. We can talk about it in more detail over lunch. 261 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:47,680 Yeah, I'll have to look into it and fine-tune the budget a bit. Speaking of 262 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:54,079 budgets -- a while back, or a bit further back, when I came back from London, 263 00:16:54,079 --> 00:17:00,440 I bought, out in Suvisaaristo, back then, together with my wife, 264 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:05,799 a plot, and had a house built on it by, I think, a competitor of Pohjola's design-house company -- 265 00:17:05,799 --> 00:17:09,720 Kannustalo -- a mansard-roof house. And then there was a surprise: 266 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:15,120 since we got a sloped plot, an extra 100 [square meters] suddenly popped up in the basement, and 267 00:17:15,120 --> 00:17:18,199 there was a site foreman who worked all that out, but 268 00:17:18,199 --> 00:17:22,079 I remember it would definitely have been bankruptcy for young Sami, 269 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:25,760 but then help came along, and the plot was sold, already zoned, 270 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,440 at a profit, and then the next owner made a somewhat smaller, 271 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,640 somewhat less grandiose setup out of it. Yeah. But I do remember there was 272 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,679 -- even though there was that site foreman -- it was quite 273 00:17:37,679 --> 00:17:41,840 painful, because you still had to weigh in on pretty much every single thing 274 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,600 and sweat over it -- like, where's some 275 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:50,200 block-built basement going to be built here, and who's going to dig it, and so on. There's 276 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,280 a lot of advantage, then, in your model. 277 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,720 Absolutely. Yeah. So, generally speaking, 278 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,240 what's a typical customer like? I've been rambling on a bit here, but 279 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,720 when I was thinking about this most actively, like 10 years ago, 280 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,520 I thought, well, I'm 55 now, so is this maybe a bit 281 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,640 too late -- right in the core age bracket. Exactly 282 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,919 in the core bracket -- actually even a bit young for this. 283 00:18:17,919 --> 00:18:22,760 Let's wait a couple of years. But yeah. What was that thing you mentioned earlier? 284 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,080 Uh, that was the interesting Council of State's cottage barometer that just came out -- 285 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:31,360 was it that over 50% of cottage owners are pensioners, and 80% are over 286 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:33,840 50 years old? That's interesting in itself -- there's 287 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,720 a pretty big generational shift coming on that basis, so to speak, 288 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,880 but yeah, as for the question of whether you're 'too late' -- well, that's an easy 289 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,360 word to use. So is this a typical situation -- 290 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:50,360 a lot of people think about this: the cottage stock is old, but it's 291 00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:54,039 such that some of it was of course built with great care, 292 00:18:54,039 --> 00:18:57,760 using traditional methods, but expectations have risen quite a bit too, 293 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,320 since people want, for instance, year-round 294 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:06,720 livability, and electricity, and heating, and fiber-optic internet, so 295 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,440 yeah, yeah, well, especially this remote-work thing has 296 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,240 brought that along, and then there's this consumer attitude where, even if 297 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,440 people say they're not going to live off hauled water, they still 298 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,520 want a fairly upscale solution. Well, exactly -- 299 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:25,640 on cottage condition -- since about a third, according to this same cottage-barometer study, 300 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,880 still -- and it's a really good study, worth reading -- 301 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,559 are, so to speak, only in use for a few months a year, 302 00:19:32,559 --> 00:19:37,240 meaning they're left unheated in winter, and especially if it's a board-frame 303 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,919 type of construction, at best there's mineral wool insulation or 304 00:19:41,919 --> 00:19:45,200 something similar -- so a large share of them probably aren't in 305 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,400 great condition, which really raises the question of whether it's worth 306 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,360 renovating or whether you need to replace it. This has quite often been the case where 307 00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:55,679 we've handled the demolition through some subcontractor, and 308 00:19:55,679 --> 00:19:59,880 brought in a completely new solution. But yeah, it's clearly 309 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,640 -- COVID definitely added to that -- people want exactly this: 310 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,400 good internet connections, and these kinds of -- there are these 311 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,679 directional cottage antennas, so that you can get 5G reception a bit 312 00:20:11,679 --> 00:20:15,240 farther out, and so on. So it really 313 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,280 -- people probably want a better level of amenities, but then 314 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,120 the size doesn't need to be so big -- people accept smaller. 315 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:27,840 Of course families are smaller too, so you don't need that much space either. But 316 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:32,159 small is actually quite a luxury these days -- 317 00:20:32,159 --> 00:20:33,640 small, so -- actually, didn't this come along -- 318 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:38,799 this new Building Act, so Finland actually got something done -- under 30 square meters 319 00:20:38,799 --> 00:20:43,080 it's now easier to build. At first that 30 sounds like 320 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:49,120 quite a small [area], but it turns out to be enough. Well, it's not just 321 00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:52,640 the only one who'd say so. We do get some of that, where 322 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:57,000 people want that garden sauna or garden building, and it's 30 square meters and 323 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,960 then, say, a garden sauna of 30 square meters -- okay, so what -- well, then you don't 324 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:04,679 need much beyond the sauna itself and maybe a small changing room. 30 is pretty generous, so 325 00:21:04,679 --> 00:21:08,240 here you'd have this sauna-cabin thing, with a living room and then a sauna. Ah, 326 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,440 yeah, this is really good, but this is 60 [square meters]. This is half of what we were talking about, 327 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,679 so hopefully we'll often see it done with something smaller too, but yeah, 328 00:21:15,679 --> 00:21:19,559 I do have to say about that -- lawmakers always get criticized, but in my 329 00:21:19,559 --> 00:21:23,320 opinion that -- I think that relates to the new Building 330 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,840 Act and the related bureaucracy-cutting drive, so 331 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,279 I'd assume it relates to the Sipilä government's 332 00:21:29,279 --> 00:21:31,799 bureaucracy-cutting effort -- that it's 333 00:21:31,799 --> 00:21:35,760 a remnant from that, or an end result of that. 334 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,559 So I have to say it's a great reform, 335 00:21:39,559 --> 00:21:43,480 and there had been a lot of worry about what it would 336 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,480 cause -- whether it would make construction go wild and so on -- 337 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,720 but at least so far there's no sign of that. There was just an article -- 338 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:54,279 I don't remember which paper -- saying nothing of the sort has been observed. 339 00:21:54,279 --> 00:21:57,440 I do think this kind of thing should be done more boldly 340 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,400 in general too. So indeed, the new Building Act came 341 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,880 into force at the start of the year -- January 2025, so a year ago, at the start of the year, 342 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,919 to clarify. And the point there was that 343 00:22:08,919 --> 00:22:12,320 of course a big reform covers a lot, but the part that's maybe 344 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,840 relevant to this context is that these under-30-square-meter 345 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,559 utility buildings are exempted from the building-permit requirement, meaning 346 00:22:20,559 --> 00:22:24,000 if you have building rights, you can build a garden building under 30 square meters 347 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,679 without a building permit, of course while following the building regulations, 348 00:22:28,679 --> 00:22:31,679 and that's a really great thing -- it shows in 349 00:22:31,679 --> 00:22:35,159 the market too, demand grew, and I think Sweden did 350 00:22:35,159 --> 00:22:38,480 a similar reform earlier and it's been a good thing, and 351 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,679 as a result, purely good things happened -- everybody wins, so 352 00:22:41,679 --> 00:22:47,559 the load on municipal building-control departments eased, and 353 00:22:47,559 --> 00:22:51,000 demand grew, because applying for a building permit is now easier 354 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,640 these days. It's actually a pretty bureaucratic process -- back before, 355 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,080 if you went straight to the local building 356 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,440 office and said, 'Hey, I want to build this, how do I 357 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,840 get a permit,' that doesn't happen anymore today. Now you can go to 358 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,159 various services, permit points and the like, where you then apply for the 359 00:23:07,159 --> 00:23:10,760 permit, and there are still quite a lot of steps, and many people do it 360 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,200 for the first, and only, time in their life, so that's a pretty 361 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,640 difficult thing. Here we saw that when that 362 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,039 bureaucracy was cut on this smaller end, vitality increased, 363 00:23:21,039 --> 00:23:25,200 everybody wins, demand grows, and in my opinion it's just a 364 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,000 great, great reform. Whenever lawmakers get blamed for adding 365 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,159 bureaucracy, here they really deserve credit -- it's just a great thing. 366 00:23:32,159 --> 00:23:35,679 So does this apply in urban, built-up areas too? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 367 00:23:35,679 --> 00:23:38,480 Okay. See, I remember that about Suvisaaristo. It was just completely 368 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,559 megalomaniacal. There we had a 5,000-square-meter plot. Back then the zoning allowed 10%, meaning 369 00:23:43,559 --> 00:23:47,640 500 square meters. So then I did it so that I set it up so that 370 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,039 I somewhat assumed it would rise to 20 [percent] at some point, so you'd get a free 371 00:23:51,039 --> 00:23:53,960 extra half, sort of. Okay. Yeah. And then I remember 372 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,559 thinking about it, well, cars -- this megalomaniac place of mine was 274 [square meters] plus a basement, 373 00:23:58,559 --> 00:24:02,159 on top of the 'giant' concept, so I figured we'd probably need 374 00:24:02,159 --> 00:24:05,640 to fit a car in there too, and so on -- and now you can actually do things like that 375 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,080 pretty freely. And this has also increased 376 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,960 -- think about your own home, for instance -- this is, first of all, this remote-work 377 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,480 point there too, where people want to be 378 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,520 working remotely, but then a separate, say, garden 379 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,679 sauna building with a remote-work space, mm, 380 00:24:20,679 --> 00:24:23,600 so, for example, in a family with kids you can go 381 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,799 out there to work remotely and then come back home. It's not a long commute from 382 00:24:27,799 --> 00:24:31,440 your own plot. And there's maybe a sauna too, or otherwise you could 383 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,760 use that same garden building -- say when the teens grow up and you don't want 384 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,240 them hanging around at the ABC [gas-station chain] in the evenings, they can stay there instead, but they're 385 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,120 still under the parents' eye. So that's this kind of extra space in the yard, 386 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:45,240 and they're really versatile hobby spaces -- 387 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,640 band-practice rooms, some use them for painting, some as a podcast studio, 388 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,480 a home gym, yeah -- there are various uses for it. But the point is 389 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,760 that if you have building rights, 390 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,799 you can build it without a building permit, and that's just 391 00:24:59,799 --> 00:25:03,960 a great thing, and this reform is definitely worth 392 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,080 taking advantage of. Well, that's really something -- I'll have to 393 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,720 look into that a bit. I'm actually already pretty content with this 394 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:18,880 urban life here in central Helsinki. I did live in London 395 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,679 for 13 years. Over there, actually, it's surprisingly free -- people have been able to 396 00:25:21,679 --> 00:25:25,279 build things like townhouse basements and other 397 00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:29,880 stuff in a pretty random way. Whereas here in Finland, 398 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,640 the old culture is that everything has to be really strict, so that's 399 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,559 actually a bit of an outlier globally. Yeah, 400 00:25:36,559 --> 00:25:40,360 it's good if it moves in that direction, because you could of course think, 401 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:43,480 that if you have, in a way, the cost-effective solution, and then maybe 402 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:48,559 the other related construction work 403 00:25:48,559 --> 00:25:52,480 is a bit cheaper now that demand has dropped elsewhere, 404 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,080 this could actually be quite a favorable moment. And then maybe the project's 405 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,919 conceptual risk is a bit lower too, since there's more capacity out there 406 00:25:59,919 --> 00:26:04,760 outside your own operation, so it could be a pretty good moment, 407 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,720 so you're not in a boom period where everyone's fighting 408 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,120 over the same resources, so you don't end up watching the costs tick away 409 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:15,039 absolutely. Yeah. And that's also, in a way, 410 00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:20,840 -- I was just at, uh, Mikko Nurminen's table 411 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:26,679 over at FiBAN, and about that Airbnb thing we were discussing, that in 412 00:26:26,679 --> 00:26:32,640 the apartment-block side, as a side effect, things like cottage-sharing groups and so on -- 413 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,720 if you're not using it yourself all the time, it's 414 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,760 become pretty painless to rent it out too, actually. 415 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:44,320 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Funny -- I have, out in Puolanka, this 416 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,799 small little sauna cottage, and 417 00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:51,320 well, I bought a plot out there at some point, and 418 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,960 then I built, on-site, out of solid logs, this 419 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,039 well -- 'the cobbler's children have no shoes' -- of course it wasn't industrially prefabricated, 420 00:26:58,039 --> 00:27:02,720 it could only be built on-site, but it was this kind of solid-log 421 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,960 solution. And I built into it a sauna cabin, meaning 422 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,840 there's, say, a ten-square-meter living room, a small kitchen, and then 423 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:18,080 a sauna and washing facilities. So I thought, 424 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,520 I'd build that first, so that our family would have some kind of 425 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,679 base there, and then maybe later a cottage solution on top of it, and 426 00:27:24,679 --> 00:27:28,960 well, then, because of the busy family years, in the end actual visits 427 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:34,000 out there have been pretty rare. So I tried it out once I got the place 428 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,159 into shape so it could be rented out, and I've since listed it on Airbnb 429 00:27:37,159 --> 00:27:42,120 and rented it out there. There's really been very good demand for it, in that 430 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:47,399 of course you need electricity and drinkable water and so on, of course, 431 00:27:47,399 --> 00:27:50,880 for it to actually work. But I was genuinely surprised, 432 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,440 because I thought it was such a small space -- okay, it's about 25 433 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:59,840 square meters of floor area there -- but there's really been a lot of interest, and even 434 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,559 foreign tourists. Really good reviews have come in, and lots of 435 00:28:03,559 --> 00:28:07,279 thanks for the place. I thought, no, this is too small for that, but 436 00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:10,799 on the contrary, it's been really, really good, and I've 437 00:28:10,799 --> 00:28:14,159 been surprised by it. Then maybe, something I've generally followed -- take, for instance, 438 00:28:14,159 --> 00:28:17,919 Puolanka as an example, which is quite a cottage-rich municipality, 439 00:28:17,919 --> 00:28:21,840 and where, say, Airbnb-style rental hasn't really been used all that much. It's 440 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,440 interesting in that sense -- surprisingly, when you notice how 441 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,679 popular it actually is on the demand side. Yeah, this Mikko Nurminen's 442 00:28:27,679 --> 00:28:31,640 business is Hostaway, which supports Airbnb -- so basically exactly those 443 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:36,240 -- it handles just that cross-border management. I mean, a unicorn 444 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,399 business -- the guy has really built an incredible business, and 445 00:28:39,399 --> 00:28:42,600 yeah, that's -- I had, as a guest, 446 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:48,440 Holmström -- was it Timo -- who was a high-school teacher, 447 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:53,320 and he does this young-entrepreneurs business, and writes 448 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,519 books about it too -- a great guy. So we do have quite a lot of 449 00:28:56,519 --> 00:29:00,399 this kind of expertise in Finland, and maybe digitalization 450 00:29:00,399 --> 00:29:04,640 in general too -- maybe I could do a little rant about 451 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:09,559 Salvos and its subsidiary Lapeland Oy, in the sense of 452 00:29:09,559 --> 00:29:12,559 how you've organized things -- this instantly-finished 453 00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:16,120 concept seems to be at the core of it, but 454 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,159 well, yeah, yeah, on the Salvos side we make 455 00:29:20,159 --> 00:29:23,399 leisure buildings out of logs -- log construction is our thing -- and of course 456 00:29:23,399 --> 00:29:26,799 on-site building, and the point -- the added value -- is precisely that we 457 00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:29,559 manufacture the buildings industrially to completion, which makes it 458 00:29:29,559 --> 00:29:34,840 easy for customers. And we've wanted to make the whole 459 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:39,120 product-and-service concept as easy as possible, so if you need a 460 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,200 building permit, we get it on the customer's behalf, and we can do the groundwork, and 461 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,240 make the whole thing as easy as possible -- and this industrial 462 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,679 manufacturing is what makes that possible. And in addition, we also have 463 00:29:48,679 --> 00:29:52,480 a subsidiary, Lapeland, which also has its own factory, and it's its own 464 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,039 operating company, part of the same group, 465 00:29:55,039 --> 00:29:58,200 and what's distinctive for them is that their equivalent buildings are 466 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,000 movable -- they're on wheels, and of course the building material isn't 467 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,120 log -- they're what's called trailer saunas, trailer cottages. 468 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:12,679 older folks might remember Paavo Väyrynen's thing -- what was it called -- 469 00:30:12,679 --> 00:30:16,720 well, I just blanked for a second, but he had some kind of towable cottage 470 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,039 -- because as an MP he had to, in a way, determine his home 471 00:30:21,039 --> 00:30:24,880 municipality, so he had this kind of mobile log 472 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:30,080 cottage building -- a skid-mounted cottage. Yeah, yeah, a skid cottage, exactly, that's what it was, 473 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,399 yeah. But it's actually been a surprisingly popular, 474 00:30:34,399 --> 00:30:37,559 well-growing business. There's of course an advantage in that 475 00:30:37,559 --> 00:30:41,519 movable solution -- you don't need foundations, and 476 00:30:41,519 --> 00:30:44,000 it's specifically movable, so, for instance, there are a lot of 477 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,640 family-shared plots, and 478 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,640 then you have your own small trailer cottage there, which has 479 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:54,799 a sauna and living space, a couple of beds, and so on, and 480 00:30:54,799 --> 00:30:57,159 you can then move it if you need to -- it's not tied down 481 00:30:57,159 --> 00:31:00,760 to that plot in any way. There's also a lot of cases where someone likes to 482 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,919 be in Lapland in the winters, but then they also have, say, a 483 00:31:03,919 --> 00:31:06,880 summer place somewhere else, maybe in Kainuu, so they can 484 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,320 move it when needed. Is there, in a way, the issue related to foundations 485 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:17,279 -- rot and so on -- somehow solved so that 486 00:31:17,279 --> 00:31:21,399 -- well, I myself don't really know much about construction, but 487 00:31:21,399 --> 00:31:24,159 quite a lot of those moisture-damage problems and so on come, I think, from 488 00:31:24,159 --> 00:31:29,080 poor foundations. Well, the Lapeland solution doesn't need 489 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,919 a foundation at all, since it's basically a traditional trailer, and that's 490 00:31:31,919 --> 00:31:36,320 mainly the ease of it -- you don't have to drive a single stake into the ground at all, if 491 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,440 you don't want to. You can level it with, like, caravan-leveling technique, 492 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,679 if you want, or you can also hook it up to conventional building services, 493 00:31:43,679 --> 00:31:46,880 if you want -- it makes it easy. And then, for our side, we use 494 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,639 what's called a pillar foundation -- the underfloor space is ventilated all the time, 495 00:31:49,639 --> 00:31:52,320 so nothing can start rotting in there -- it just keeps ventilating 496 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,320 continuously. Because mold damage 497 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,600 is constantly used to scare people. Of course, with old 498 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,120 housing stock, if you buy one of those, it's an even bigger problem, because they were 499 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:06,159 built however it happened to turn out. Yeah, yeah, there's plenty of that, 500 00:32:06,159 --> 00:32:09,720 going back decades -- there was every kind of 501 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,519 hidden-plinth foundation solution, those are 502 00:32:12,519 --> 00:32:16,120 -- but what's started to interest me is that production side of things -- I'm on 503 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,440 the board of Redman Group, and I was really blown away when 504 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,919 I got to think through those robots and other things myself, like whether we'd take 505 00:32:22,919 --> 00:32:28,039 plan 2.1 or 2.2 here, and of course 2.2, since it had more 506 00:32:28,039 --> 00:32:31,760 line changes and so on. And then I remember, with 507 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,360 my Translink hat on, when Norsk Hydro was listed, and they got 508 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,919 IPO proceeds and built a whole new production facility with them, and it was 509 00:32:39,919 --> 00:32:43,399 great to watch them design the flow in there -- 510 00:32:43,399 --> 00:32:46,960 is this the kind of thing that's your everyday work, tuning the production line, 511 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,840 or was it born perfect from the start? 512 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,519 Definitely not. Definitely not. And this is exactly the thing -- since with us 513 00:32:53,519 --> 00:32:57,039 -- this is actually funny -- every single building solution of ours 514 00:32:57,039 --> 00:33:00,360 is, in practice, a bit customized, but by far the largest part of the solution 515 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,720 is tailored by the customer themselves. Yeah. 516 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,600 So this kind of modularity is what makes that possible, and that's 517 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,600 a significant added value. If you have a plot, it's 518 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,919 always a bit unique -- which way the windows face, how the cottage is 519 00:33:13,919 --> 00:33:17,559 brought in. So every solution is practically unique, especially 520 00:33:17,559 --> 00:33:21,039 on the cottage side, which of course creates a challenge in the production 521 00:33:21,039 --> 00:33:26,279 process. There's constant small variability. So that 522 00:33:26,279 --> 00:33:30,200 variation keeps coming up, and at the same time you have to combine it with 523 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,799 this kind of industrial manufacturing anyway. We do of course have 524 00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:35,639 a strict concept for how it can be varied, so that it supports 525 00:33:35,639 --> 00:33:39,159 the production process. But managing a big supply chain like that 526 00:33:39,159 --> 00:33:42,399 really does involve quite a lot of variables -- 527 00:33:42,399 --> 00:33:46,519 what buffers are needed at different points in production, 528 00:33:46,519 --> 00:33:49,519 and then how the production is planned, how it's 529 00:33:49,519 --> 00:33:53,360 loaded. That's one of the biggest, most central things for production efficiency -- 530 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,720 how the production is loaded, and it's at the planning stage 531 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,080 that the biggest factor in production efficiency is decided -- if 532 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,080 it's loaded poorly, then problems show up on that line and it shows immediately 533 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,399 in the output. And especially in a setup where 534 00:34:07,399 --> 00:34:10,720 everything is different -- whereas if you think of a traditional 535 00:34:10,720 --> 00:34:14,200 car factory, that's repeating the same thing over and over, and there's 536 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,800 a certain rhythm you can follow. But here, the situation 537 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,839 is constantly changing and evolving, so you have to track the data pretty closely. 538 00:34:21,839 --> 00:34:27,240 Yeah, I actually visited that Valmet factory in Uusimaa, and of course 539 00:34:27,240 --> 00:34:30,560 there too, even with robotics, you get an incredible amount of 540 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,320 customization, since the cars change and so on. Now 541 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,399 they're about to start making, like, weapons too there, so 542 00:34:38,399 --> 00:34:42,639 those modern factory environments are really fascinating. And isn't 543 00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:45,960 this Oulu and North Ostrobothnia region -- there's 544 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,760 quite a lot of really sharp people around, in this same kind of scene, 545 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,839 there are smart people to be found, and you'd think everyone 546 00:34:53,839 --> 00:34:57,200 -- if they're not competing directly with each other -- would still share 547 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,000 ideas a bit too. Yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah, yes. And 548 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,359 a lot really is shared, even among pretty close competitors -- 549 00:35:04,359 --> 00:35:07,280 news and updates, those who aren't directly in exactly the same 550 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,720 market, among these industrial players. And take, for instance, 551 00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:14,119 Lapwall, right next to our factory -- it's a really 552 00:35:14,119 --> 00:35:17,480 interesting concept of theirs -- there's still an analogy to 553 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,599 our own operations, even though they're an element manufacturer, and they've 554 00:35:20,599 --> 00:35:25,599 been really smart about conceptualizing exactly this -- that they 555 00:35:25,599 --> 00:35:28,480 share out design guidelines, so that you can design the 556 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,839 building using their own building-block-style system, 557 00:35:31,839 --> 00:35:35,720 so, in practice -- it's great, it's really great, and 558 00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:39,520 it improves the construction industry's otherwise weak 559 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,920 productivity growth -- that modularity. I, back 560 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,720 at one point, many iterations ago, looked at Evac, which makes 561 00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:52,079 -- it got sold off recently, at a high price, to foreign owners, which is a bit of a shame in these cases, because 562 00:35:52,079 --> 00:35:55,200 they end up going that way after a certain point, but at the time it was really 563 00:35:55,200 --> 00:36:00,040 good, this, in cruise-ship toilet technology -- 564 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,800 the modular approach in those solutions. And then maybe, as 565 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,960 a cautionary example, there's Lehto -- they built a really nice concept 566 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,640 around that modular construction, but then there was 567 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,960 some poor execution. But still, the basic foundation -- 568 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,480 that kind of modular approach, say if you now do this 569 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,720 bathroom efficiently by standardizing it a bit, you get 570 00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:24,960 efficiency gains, for sure. Definitely, definitely. And Lehto was 571 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,640 genuinely great in residential construction -- really strong momentum 572 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,319 in that work. It's a shame the outcome was what it was, but 573 00:36:32,319 --> 00:36:35,040 it wasn't their residential-construction expertise that was the problem -- they were 574 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,319 really, really skilled at that. Other issues came up -- maybe they 575 00:36:38,319 --> 00:36:43,839 expanded too aggressively into other 576 00:36:43,839 --> 00:36:47,480 areas that they no longer had a handle on. But that 577 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,000 residential-construction business was a genuinely great thing. And we too 578 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,000 did the same thing ourselves -- say, we outsourced the bathroom units, those room 579 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,760 solutions, and tried to standardize them so they'd always be the same, so that 580 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,359 you get certain production benefits, so we get 581 00:37:02,359 --> 00:37:06,119 efficiency gains. But this is already quite far along -- 582 00:37:06,119 --> 00:37:10,000 it's already being done -- there are these bathroom-module manufacturers who 583 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,640 specialize purely in that, and can 584 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,760 bring that into residential construction too. It'll be really interesting to see 585 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,319 when that market eventually starts picking up again, what 586 00:37:19,319 --> 00:37:23,520 has been developed during today's quiet period. Because surely 587 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,079 that side of things is definitely moving forward too. 588 00:37:27,079 --> 00:37:30,680 Yeah. I should actually get in touch with those Paasikivi people. They had 589 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:36,839 this sprout/seedling business, and then those pipe-related things too, so 590 00:37:36,839 --> 00:37:40,920 in Finland there's actually a lot, when you think about it, of this kind of 591 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,400 innovative expertise -- there has been, and still is, in those kinds of 592 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,280 technical fields. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yeah, 593 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,240 that's true. For us it adds its own particular twist to that 594 00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:55,280 whole thing -- if you think about residential construction, or 595 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,640 single-family home building, they still have the same standard -- you always have to 596 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,319 build the building according to certain standards. But then 597 00:38:01,319 --> 00:38:04,480 on the cottage side, things are considerably freer, and then there's exactly 598 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,359 this: a significant share of owners use it only for a few months 599 00:38:07,359 --> 00:38:10,240 -- most cottage owners use theirs just for those few months 600 00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:13,960 a year, so there's a huge amount of variation in that, in terms of 601 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,280 level of amenities -- so a genuinely bare-bones summer cottage, 602 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,760 you could go with, say, just a log frame 603 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,680 and gravity-based ventilation, and no running water or electricity. That's 604 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,040 -- then you've got an outdoor sauna, all the moisture management, and everything is 605 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,560 really simple. And then, as the complete opposite of that, 606 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,079 there's a purely second-home-type solution, and 607 00:38:36,079 --> 00:38:40,480 in between there's a huge amount of variation, which makes this 608 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,800 on one hand interesting, on the other challenging. And we've 609 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,640 managed pretty well -- we're able to vary the equipment level quite a bit, 610 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,319 but for example from a production-loading standpoint, that's also quite 611 00:38:50,319 --> 00:38:53,640 -- if you think about it, one building might get 612 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,560 tiling, bathroom tiling, and that kind of 613 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,440 work in a big proportion relative to the building's size, and another one 614 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,680 gets none of it at all -- so you understand what that means 615 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,880 on an industrial line -- drying times and everything like that. So it 616 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,880 takes quite a bit of juggling sometimes to make it all work. 617 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,680 Well, let's think about this now -- let's come back to this, thinking about 618 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:18,720 the second home there in Heinola -- or rather, in Sysmä. So, there, 619 00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:24,160 uh, indeed, these cousins have taken care of the 620 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,720 road and utility infrastructure in a way where it already runs to one or two cottages, 621 00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:30,920 the road, and of course they maintain it, 622 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,160 then there are a couple of options for using the other cousin's 623 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,720 road, and from both it's still under 100 meters 624 00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:43,119 to the shoreline. There's a bit of pine forest there, but 625 00:39:43,119 --> 00:39:47,319 you could probably clear it and sell that at a profit. And then indeed, 626 00:39:47,319 --> 00:39:52,240 both of them have shoreline -- one has a rocky shore, and 627 00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:57,200 the other has this kind of peaty, organic shoreline. Yeah, but then that 30 [square meters] 628 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,440 sounds a bit stingy after all. So then, would it 629 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,520 be the typical 60 square meters, and then again the sauna is 630 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,800 of course a question there too -- is it the main building and 631 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,720 sauna building, or something like that -- could you sketch this out for me a bit? 632 00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:14,599 Well, first you'd need to start from what kind of use it's meant for -- 633 00:40:14,599 --> 00:40:18,160 will it, say, for example, be used in winter -- 634 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:23,000 well, yeah, maybe, of course -- I'm the type who goes for maximum, really, 635 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,480 always, before I start a project like this, it's always like: 636 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,560 of course it's year-round, of course it has every treat, and 637 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,640 honestly a bit over the top, if you're listening -- but for that summer-only 638 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,680 spec, you can imagine me going full maximum on it. Of course. But 639 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,040 that's a totally different kind of solution -- take, for example, this 640 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,760 one we have right now, say, in production -- this 60-square-meter cottage where 641 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,520 it has its own bathroom, and then, say, two bedrooms 642 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,440 and a big combined living-room-kitchen, and 643 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,000 that kind of thing -- so it's practically made of two modules, 644 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,760 installation on-site takes one or two days, so it arrives completely 645 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,000 finished. Then there'd be a sauna, and you'd just put in the door for it, because the sauna 646 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,040 at a cottage always has to be a separate 647 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:08,160 outdoor sauna, of course -- so could you fit that within the 30 [square meters]? Of course this 648 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,560 -- 30 is too much if there's already that 60-square-meter main building. 649 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,960 Well, if you have -- yeah, but how much building rights do you actually have there? 650 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,280 Uh, well, now you asked a tough one, but it's, in a way, already been 651 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,839 set in stone -- those building rights were applied for, as far as I know they're 652 00:41:22,839 --> 00:41:26,720 in force. I don't really know, but there's -- it's quite a large area, 653 00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:30,480 and, well, a caveat here -- hopefully, if the relatives aren't listening 654 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,800 too closely to this -- I'm not actually the owner of this yet. So 655 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,280 it's small, but still, same thing here -- 656 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,680 the cousins have built there, sort of gradually improving things over time, 657 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,520 so this isn't 658 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,520 -- it's really just a matter of negotiation. But that 30-ish you mentioned -- 659 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,800 the law's premise is that it's a utility building under 30 square meters. 660 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,440 So if you're putting a main building on the plot, 661 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:54,599 meaning we're talking about 662 00:41:54,599 --> 00:41:57,640 a cottage building -- whether it's 30 square meters or 663 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:02,119 60, it always needs a permit, because it's a leisure residence, 664 00:42:02,119 --> 00:42:06,079 and there's been a lot of misunderstanding about this, and 665 00:42:06,079 --> 00:42:09,160 what determines whether it's for residential use or not -- there's 666 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,440 no direct law on that as such, but it was clarified during the 667 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,480 law-drafting process, from quite a high level, that if the building has 668 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,319 a fixed stove, mm, 669 00:42:19,319 --> 00:42:22,839 then it's considered a building intended for residential use. 670 00:42:22,839 --> 00:42:26,040 If it doesn't have one, then under certain conditions it could be a garden building, but 671 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,880 that's not written in any law as such. But this was just so that consumers could 672 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,559 assess whether they need to apply for a permit or not. But that's roughly 673 00:42:33,559 --> 00:42:37,640 how it goes. So in principle, if you had that [30-square-meter] cottage there, 674 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,040 you'd need to apply for a permit for it, but for the garden sauna you wouldn't need a permit. 675 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:45,760 It's completely permit-free, and you can build it -- as long as you stay under 30 square meters, and 676 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,440 as we were discussing, that's actually a pretty big deal -- it would be 677 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,839 practically a beachside guest cottage without any of these 678 00:42:52,839 --> 00:42:55,559 stove installations. Right, right, right. But 679 00:42:55,559 --> 00:42:58,559 that would actually be really good if you think of a kind of two-section layout, 680 00:42:58,559 --> 00:43:01,720 with a sauna on one side and then a living area, and then when 681 00:43:01,720 --> 00:43:04,599 friends come to visit, there's space for them there, and then there's 682 00:43:04,599 --> 00:43:09,440 the main cottage building there. Hey, great -- Sami, let's go, lunch is -- Mauno the dachshund -- 683 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,079 -- ask your wife along too, a joint lunch, a shared lunch -- 684 00:43:13,079 --> 00:43:18,400 yeah, yeah, well -- unfortunately she had the flu around then, so 685 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,800 but yeah, she doesn't normally watch these episodes anyway, but maybe this is 686 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,559 an exception then -- some sales work has been done here 687 00:43:27,559 --> 00:43:29,000 on her behalf, yeah. 688 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:33,640 But maybe let's take, to close this out, a quick glimpse at 689 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,440 digitalization. And we do have mutual friends, 690 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,960 for example this Mikko Alasaarela, and with this agent concept, 691 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:46,160 he's now digitalizing everything with these agent farms. So could you give a quick glimpse 692 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:51,960 into your own IT infrastructure a bit here, 693 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,640 and whether you have thoughts on that. And I think we could save 694 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,599 the deeper vision talk for the inner-circle segment. 695 00:43:57,599 --> 00:44:02,559 Okay. Okay. Well, yeah. I actually have to say, while listening to this, 696 00:44:02,559 --> 00:44:06,240 -- was it summer, when I listened to Mikko Alasaarela here 697 00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:12,319 as a guest -- and he talked about this productivity leap with AI assistance 698 00:44:12,319 --> 00:44:15,880 and talked about these agent farms, and I was a bit -- I'm still 699 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,160 a bit lost when it comes to that world, so I listened to 700 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,319 that whole thing -- it's such an interesting topic. And we've since been 701 00:44:22,319 --> 00:44:26,160 cooking up a bit of collaboration with them too, but 702 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,960 yeah, you might quickly think, well, surely AI wouldn't 703 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:36,800 help a hand-craft workshop like this -- can it even make use of AI? But 704 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:41,119 when we sat down with them, we arrived at the 705 00:44:41,119 --> 00:44:46,079 conclusion that there's a genuinely shocking number of things you can 706 00:44:46,079 --> 00:44:48,280 use to improve productivity 707 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,960 with the help of AI. So we really, we really 708 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,480 do intend to invest seriously in that going forward, 709 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,359 and, well, I have one 710 00:44:59,359 --> 00:45:03,640 friend whose wife is an architect, and she started 711 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,520 coding a new architecture database, so it's 712 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,839 sort of a small customer database, or some kind of 713 00:45:11,839 --> 00:45:16,880 customer-history management thing, and 714 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:21,319 sort of profiling, persona types, and marketing 715 00:45:21,319 --> 00:45:24,520 integration -- it's lightweight work, and you can really go very deep 716 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:29,559 into those processes with it. Definitely -- so digitalization, 717 00:45:29,559 --> 00:45:32,440 actually, combined with AI on top of that, yeah, recently 718 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,040 one thing I've concretely noticed is how 719 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,119 -- the kitchen design, for instance -- with us too, all the designs, we can 720 00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:44,720 have a sales rep draw up the design and it's immediately with the customer in 3D 721 00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:49,160 -- they go and look at it: ah, this is like this, maybe that space could be, you know, 722 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:53,119 completely realistic. It's an incredible pace of development, how 723 00:45:53,119 --> 00:45:57,119 -- yeah, and so, in a way, you already see the future direction right now, 724 00:45:57,119 --> 00:46:01,119 so it's not just some illustrative rendering, but really something built specifically for you -- 725 00:46:01,119 --> 00:46:06,680 say, for that Sysmä plot, sort of -- I mean, this isn't -- this isn't quite 726 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,079 reality yet, but it'll probably come soon -- so if you go to the plot, 727 00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:13,040 you can think, this will go there, and you look out from that window, 728 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,720 yeah, yeah, definitely. And for something like that you could use, like, a QR code, so 729 00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:21,200 scan it with the camera, model the space, and then create your own 730 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,680 virtual world of it, and then you can go ahead and sketch out the 731 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,559 cottage in it. I do believe in that, and it doesn't even have to be very expensive. 732 00:46:28,559 --> 00:46:33,000 Definitely not. No. Yeah. But maybe we could 733 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:37,440 save that for the inner-circle episode. But maybe, now that we started on 734 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:42,079 the political note, that good things have been done here, like this 30-square-meter 735 00:46:42,079 --> 00:46:47,000 exemption -- would you still have some message for the current government, 736 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:51,520 and especially for the next one, which looks, unfortunately, or 737 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:56,119 happily, depending on your point of view -- it'll be blue-red [center-right/left coalition] -- what kind of 738 00:46:56,119 --> 00:47:00,599 things could our public authorities perhaps do on this front of yours? Well, I don't 739 00:47:00,599 --> 00:47:05,200 think I'll start criticizing, because in my 740 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,440 opinion the reform that's happened was really great, and 741 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,920 I think, hopefully, this encourages 742 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:16,040 lawmakers to cut some bureaucracy, to cut some regulation, 743 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:20,760 even from the harder end, because that doesn't necessarily 744 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,400 lead to everything turning into a free-for-all. Finns are still 745 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,960 a pretty rule-abiding people. We're a pretty, pretty 746 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:32,800 rule-raised people. So, the fact that 747 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:38,040 -- that was a bold, big change, and there was 748 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:42,160 a lot of scaremongering, saying you can't deregulate something like that, 749 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,359 that these are already sizeable buildings, and it'll turn into a completely wild 750 00:47:45,359 --> 00:47:49,520 Wild West. And well, of course, there's only about a year of history behind us now, but 751 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,640 there's no sign at all of it running wild -- quite 752 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,760 the opposite: vitality has increased, everyone wins. So my message is just 753 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,400 more of this. Yeah. Well -- there is something, in my opinion, 754 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:06,160 like that AVI [Regional State Administrative Agency] fee of 25.50, it could definitely be walked back down a bit lower 755 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,559 -- because, well, all these things that raise prices 756 00:48:09,559 --> 00:48:13,280 reduce demand. That's just an economic-theory fact -- that's how it 757 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,960 is. Remember, girls and boys: the more something is taxed, the less 758 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,000 you get of it. Yeah, that does tend to be roughly how it goes, 759 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:20,960 so, yeah. 760 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,280 But then again I do understand that the overall situation for Finland's 761 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,040 economy is so challenging that good advice here 762 00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:32,040 comes at a cost. That's already what you hear out there. But anyway, I suggest that 763 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:37,839 Veli-Matti Kurkela, let's actually go to that lunch to think through these 764 00:48:37,839 --> 00:48:42,640 cottage matters. But before that, let's do this short inner-circle discussion about 765 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,880 making use of AI. Thanks for the visit. 766 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,040 Yes. Thank you very much.