{"title": "The Extreme AI Future | Ville Tolvanen, Timo Savolainen", "titleOriginal": "Äärimmäinen AI-tulevaisuus | Ville Tolvanen Timo Savolainen | Neuvottelija Sisäpiiri 132", "episodeNumber": "132", "guest": "Ville Tolvanen, Timo Savolainen", "publishedAt": "2026-02-15", "duration": "20:48", "durationIso": "PT20M48S", "youtube": "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2c3-_PA6YU", "fiCanonical": "https://www.neuvottelija.fi/fi/episodes/667-aarimmainen-ai-tulevaisuus-ville-tolvanen-timo-savolainen-ne", "originalLanguage": "fi", "format": "full", "topics": ["ai_enterprise_tech", "investing_markets"], "description": "The Extreme AI Future | Ville Tolvanen Timo Savolainen | Neuvottelija Sisäpiiri 132. We dive deep into the ultra-future of AI and humanity's dreams of an intergalactic civilization. We go through three possible scenarios, from the bursting of the tech bubble to the inevitable rise of superintelligence this decade. The discussion expands into robotics, digital twins, and how individuals could run entire companies with AI armies. Finally, we consider the race between capital and labor, and the impact of the technological singularity on society and investing.", "chapters": [{"t": "00:00", "title": "Toward a multi-planetary species and Mars", "seconds": 0}, {"t": "00:50", "title": "The threat of a new technological recession", "seconds": 50}, {"t": "01:14", "title": "The rapid breakthrough and adoption of language models", "seconds": 74}, {"t": "02:00", "title": "The birth of superintelligence this decade", "seconds": 120}, {"t": "02:46", "title": "One-person agent armies and large corporations", "seconds": 166}, {"t": "03:40", "title": "Sci-fi dystopias and autonomous guards", "seconds": 220}, {"t": "05:40", "title": "Humanoid robots and the physical dimension", "seconds": 340}, {"t": "07:16", "title": "Digital avatars and doubles", "seconds": 436}, {"t": "09:58", "title": "Capital's ultimate victory over labor", "seconds": 598}, {"t": "13:16", "title": "Investing in the AI era - UFO baskets, indices, and the young", "seconds": 796}, {"t": "18:20", "title": "AI service businesses", "seconds": 1100}], "sourceTranscriptType": "finnish-human-curated-subtitles", "subtitleMethod": "claude-fi-to-en-cue-preserving-translation", "provenance": "local SRT curated by Sami Miettinen (Neuvottelija-Subtitles folder)", "slug": "667-aarimmainen-ai-tulevaisuus-ville-tolvanen-timo-savolainen-ne", "guestsCanonical": ["Ville Tolvanen", "Timo Savolainen"], "guestPages": ["https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/guests/ville-tolvanen/", "https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/guests/timo-savolainen/"], "page": "https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/episodes/667-aarimmainen-ai-tulevaisuus-ville-tolvanen-timo-savolainen-ne/", "markdown": "https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/episodes/667-aarimmainen-ai-tulevaisuus-ville-tolvanen-timo-savolainen-ne/index.md", "captions": {"vtt": "https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/episodes/667-aarimmainen-ai-tulevaisuus-ville-tolvanen-timo-savolainen-ne/captions.en.vtt", "srt": "https://www.neuvottelija.com/podcast/episodes/667-aarimmainen-ai-tulevaisuus-ville-tolvanen-timo-savolainen-ne/captions.en.srt"}, "transcript": "[00:00] Alright, welcome here aboard the moon rocket to Mars, or is that too bland a vision. So we could actually start with Elon Musk here. when we're talking about the ultra-future of AI, the guy still decided that we have to go to Mars, we have to develop AI, we have to bring emission-free energy, cars have to be electrified. And then we create a whole [unclear] and connect the mind to a computer, so with these humanity gets quite far, and out of that comes a kind of intergalactic species. Manage beyond Earth too, not just on Mars, but across the universe. At this level I'd like us to really let loose and speculate properly about where this A- -I train is taking us. So I can start, I'll do three scenarios on this thing. I'll start with the unpleasant scenario, meaning we're living in the 1999 IT bubble. Then we take 80 percent off the Nasdaq's valuations and carry on along a slow curve like that.\n\n[01:05] We calculate future returns and values and sums. So that's the unpleasant reality that nobody hopes happens, but it could happen. The moderately bold scenario was that- this fast adoption of language models actually breaks down that resistance and things really start happening in curricula and in healthcare companies. Competitors show up offering AI doctor consultations for 29 euros. If we can generate that kind of buzz, that is, an accelerant. That reminds me of [unclear]. from the 90s, which Nokia also used, and the phases of technology adoption. In theory there's a possibility that through the user this kind of accelerated model of it comes about. And then maybe the bold vision, one I could still believe in this decade, would be that superintelligence, or this kind of self-reasoning AI-\n\n[02:11] -happens within the next four or five years. That means, really, what Sami already described a bit at the start in the previous segment. The smartest people become the operators of these agent armies, or agent farms, and they become- Hey, create competitive advantage for yourself in your own profession, as a researcher, or an investor, or a consultant. and are able to run, say, a ten-person company on their own. That's why this was my pitch, this AI banker or AI lawyer, that if you're specialized enough in a laser-precise vertical. then you can basically be the best in Finland or the world, if you have this kind of super-AI army at your disposal. So you know a little bit of everything and you're able to handle everything.\n\n[03:11] And then if you're the right person on top of it. Dosing it out correctly to different groups and in the right order, then you're actually pretty productive and efficient. I'd maybe argue toward Elon's angle. These types of scenarios, they're really interesting. Where am I getting these from, sci-fi? I've been watching since childhood. Then you can choose whether it's the Terminator that we believe in. The Black Mirror series on Netflix, all the seasons are worth watching. You'll find there, among other things, one- -one episode where people are watched over by these dog-like things. You might remember, maybe, if you've seen it. In my opinion, developing Ukraine before Russia. Without taking a stance on that. We already know that, over there. In the United States they've developed these kinds of dogs that watch over people, they don't have those iron jaws. When we keep talking about AI all the time, we're still really talking about algorithms and data. Then when that gets connected to this real world-\n\n[04:12] Now there's this thing that isn't talked about much at all in Finland, humanoid robots and self-driving cars. Then, for example, these kinds of world models, World Foundation Model. We talk about these big language models, large language model. You forgot the flying cars. No, that's still coming. Everything's coming, but the talk- [unclear] They're making flying electric cars in China, even better cars. Surely the picture of that will change. Are we going to get to, are we going to travel around in those flying cars? That's another question. When it comes, the question is when. When we talk about large language models, I don't understand these robots or what we have. Why does the talk stay on that table, or- -or things of that type. And Nvidia released, at the start of '25, this first World Foundation Model, which specifically models this studio and understands that we don't just start floating up in the air here with [unclear], because we're sitting on this bench and I have gravity and all these basic things\n\n[05:14] And this is the big, big thing, which is also one future scenario. Let's think about it, there's been a lot of talk now about the fact that- -how much is an appropriate reward for Elon Musk for this work that he does. There was all kinds of commotion about whether that's an appropriate amount. of dollars, whatever was promised to him for this work as pay, or not. Think about it, they've actually been developing this Optimus for a long time already. At the second book's release there was Optimus. So there was only the shell, it wasn't being moved around yet, but it was there as Tesla's partner, and Tesla's Optimus. It's a robot like that - whole, and looking like us, that kind of robot. But we've made incredible leaps of development in that. And for example just during this year alone, this innovation of how we grip some object - the skin is the decisive thing there. But this is actually based on, if we think about- -Tesla's valuation and think about what's going to happen to it.\n\n[06:15] Waymo currently operates self-driving cars in certain cities. But if we then take the scenario where, well, autonomous cars, we start from the assumption that it happens, let's say, within five years in Finland- -cars will be able to drive out there in the rain. At [unclear] they also showed something where you can use a thermal camera to see all moving objects, much better, and moose and everything else. That the technology exists, it's just that there isn't [unclear] yet and so on. Elon and Musk build this kind of thing, where we- -basically forget about those EV drivers. Our cars actually move around completely on their own. We can rent - I don't own, I mean, a Tesla, but we would own- We could put them out on that farm, where they move around and anyone can make use of them, and crowdsourcing to the next level. This is an interesting one. In the real world, yes, AI will get there, and Optimus is indeed a good [unclear] for that.\n\n[07:16] Maybe I'd put it together like this, that you have that super intelligent AI, which connects to your mental world, and you're able to replicate it. Then this access to the physical world, meaning there could well be physical avatars, meaning those Optimuses get to the level where I send my second- -double to go experience things on my behalf in various places, and if there's the cash for it, why not a couple more too. In the virtual world, my best AI butlers will probably already be chatting there in the fairly near future. -with other counterparts. That leaves even that fairly meaningless. I'm the same way too, in that I love reading sci-fi a ton, and enjoy these too- One of my favorite books is this Heinlein book, Stranger in a Strange Land, which is where this Grok comes from, who, if I recall, comes from Mars to experience Finland. The other is a sci-fi genre we share, which has been Iain Banks's Culture. That's where this brain [unclear] comes from, meaning in a way these data links.\n\n[08:18] There, well-intentioned AIs really already reign. We're like Labrador retrievers, that fortunately they [unclear] us, but we get to fulfill ourselves. in many different ways, and with eternal life. In paintings across all the centuries, humans are depicted as this kind of person strolling in a meadow, as if- -as someone savoring life, as if that were the goal state. I'd ask you this, since you're talking about sci-fi and these innovations. What, in your view, would trigger this kind of fast- -not linear, but exponential development. Where would that come from? Yes, general AI is like that, it can indeed make better AIs. That's where the singularity happens. We're talking about Waymo's Lidar [unclear], or its competitor. And then maybe also our own use of it, which is scary too, because we're such a [unclear] people, that we don't have that data, some [unclear], and our teddy bears leak off into other countries.\n\n[09:28] Then when, in a way, those tech bros over in the States, who actually have the money, are able to leverage it at the point when work becomes basically a trivial matter, then that capital will also possibly keep accumulating. [unclear] Our examples though, of how we use robots or self-driving cars, these kinds of cost savings. But here, in a way, the game between labor and capital ends almost certainly in capital's favor. That is, our ability to just create more value everywhere, but the thing about capital is its ability to accumulate exponentially. Returns are hardly going to disappear all of a sudden. There's always something worth putting it into. This is just an arms race, in that it never pays to be poor, but in this era, when the added value of labor is fading away. It's especially painful to be poor. But I'll still go through this, if we talk about these, whether we have a dystopia, where these young people actually get employed.\n\n[10:30] Now of course in Finland we're in a special situation, we don't have productivity growth. And I just mentioned this IT sector, and relative to our population we have, for example, a huge number of coders. And now some of them happen to be sitting on the sidelines, and we're just not getting into that. But if we go a bit further from this, let's take the longer- Let's assume everyone gets everything they can out of AI, and Ville's question is, what triggers that innovation. Because right now we've been all along, it's become- -easier for the individual. You can do it with your phone. The AIs and everything are right there. So you don't need to open up your laptop, you can get that connectivity without it. You can do it on your phone. And in a way, when it comes into use for everyone over a huge surface area, that creates the effect that it isn't dropped from the top down, but rather, the bigger the population that starts making use of this- -that's where those innovations come from, the ones that change the game. If we still look back a bit, reflecting from history into the future, I think this could be a kind of renaissance era.\n\n[11:34] And that renaissance era, well, none of us were around back then, we're not that old, we weren't part of it, after all. We might be. I think we're this kind of- Am I Michelangelo or Leonardo da Vinci? Hard to say which. Could just be a bit of both. A bit like both. That's at the individual level, that's just like- Do I have a goal, do I have a profession, what happens - but art and culture, it all started developing. We're at this point, so let's imagine- -we're not actually in '99, we're there on the threshold of progress, moving forward from here. What we're talking about is whether we have- -a five-day weekend and a two-day work week. These kinds of things - there've been all sorts of trials with universal basic income and so on. What would this be, I wonder? What if we thought more about spending time together, and that value creation came from somewhere else entirely. Unfortunately that happens with capital. Get it for other young people too. -rich parents.\n\n[12:36] At least enough that they'll pay you a few tens of euros for an AI system here, while you're still able to build some kind of added value as commander-in-chief of an army of AI butlers. If General Miettinen is running that army worth ten person-years of work, then try to get into that group already at an early stage. Now it was said to the listeners that there are two things that trigger productivity or development - AI development and capital. -competition for the best innovations, and capital creates value. We might agree on that, well where would you be willing to put it now. Where's worth investing? Well, personally I invest pretty consistently in the index, and then sometimes I send a few tickers off into that 'UFO basket' over there. Electric car makers, or Hims and Hers, [unclear].\n\n[13:43] [unclear] and Hims and Hers is up 650 percent, this EHang is down 10 percent. Sometimes these are a bit like that, that the general index is better, even though it does have that awful 30% Magnificent Seven weighting. Then I put quite a bit, a little, into these private equity funds for the thrill of it, and maybe partly because of my job too, since these days I'm not into private equity -a member of the association's communications working group only, just enough to look on it a little favorably I'll throw in a bit of a different spin here, which maybe you didn't want to hear, but I'll answer anyway: invest in youth. That is, this is a great example, that we have a teenager here with us. And in a way, that- -what they're able to achieve is actually in our hands. And what I mean by that is, don't chain them down, set them free.\n\n[14:45] Give them the chances to succeed and to fail and to bang their head against the wall on it. To that big [unclear], as much as it feels like it. And in a way that hopefully leads to, since we talked about these tech bros and such, about who- -who the next ones are. We have that expertise. This isn't about there being better intelligence over there across the water. Or whatever, on the other side of the globe there's a different kind of intelligence. Because still, if we take this huge globe that we have here, then in Finland we have this mass of people, of whom a certain generation is at hand right now. And in a way, how do we build that future security for them, and that mindset - I think about it myself, since of course as a family we face this angle every day, and where I invest, so in a way I want to build that future for them. If someone's listening and wondering whether we could hire some young person here to do it, even if it doesn't produce exactly that when you look at the euros, whatever that is, then take those young people on, seriously, because- -then once they get into it and do these things.\n\n[15:49] That's where the capital comes from. And in a way, the capitalist perspective on that is, it has to start somewhere. It's these garage companies, that's where these started from. These [unclear] and so on getting going, if you remember the Microsoft story, from that garage, and Silicon Valley. Why couldn't that be here with us? We actually do have good examples like that. For example this whole semiconductor technology right now. Let's think about what that story was - at [unclear] - where they told this Drone Sensor Fusion story. Drove the package by car. Ukraine. And took those first devices out there, pretty much himself. And now let's see, okay, there's this super-cycle going on now in defense technology. And in a way the angle, where we talked about [unclear] earlier. And these get created, they want to generate that capital from there. Look in the mirror a bit, now let's actually bring the youth into this. A third perspective, so viewers and listeners get something a bit different.\n\n[16:52] Sami had the UFO basket and the indices. You had youth. I'd say now it's worth founding service companies that focus on individuals'- -in developing AI skills, or service companies that remove AI-adoption barriers in some industry. Because once again in Finland IT consultants are trying to code something -or bring about some kind of revolution through software. This is quite clearly- -a user-driven revolution, and we could learn a lot, as long as we find a way here to- -expose the masses to it. It came to mind, that just under ten years ago, Reaktor made that first AI course. Yeah, satellite too, but Elements of AI, which - jeez, look at that - something like 150,000, I have that diploma, 200,000 consumers. Now we need more launches like that.\n\n[17:54] Now let's really decide on these kinds of big citizen initiatives. -citizen initiatives, citizen-driven launches, that are really easy to grasp and understand. Now I need for this- . This is our idea. Why we were founded. 4. Saalto. AI-native, consulting company. It's specifically that we basically want to- To put that in Finnish, is that some [unclear]? Service business. If there are any executives listening right now, we focus on this: we run them through the wringer. So the insight for management teams there is, really, this - now Sami, do you have a personal mentor. -telling you what to do with this AI. What is your Translink Corporate management team doing together on this? If you get taken through this kind of AI coaching program, frankly this service exists, so welcome, just come on and make a deal. That gets you the big masses, but how do we get - in these service companies I agree, IT consulting has been pretty much the same for years and years. Now with the help of AI you can do it in a really different way when it comes to producing value.\n\n[18:56] So basically this, that we have just a huge amount- All the information is available, after all. How do we motivate people? Are you? Do you do yoga? No, but Translink's [unclear] does [unclear] at the maritime days, every hour. The guy comes into the workplace and says that this yoga thing is actually a really big deal. Now we all go, Friday morning, onto the meeting room floor, and roll out those mats, and now let's do a bit of yoga and stretch. And then the weekend comes, and on Monday- -how many are still doing yoga. Well, not very many. This needs to- The service exposes people to that, so we get that intrinsic motivation. [unclear] Are we going to attend some Elements of AI course? But that ought to turn into action there. Then that comes down to incentives. What do you have- You're on some company's board, what's your incentive to adopt AI?\n\n[19:56] Is it that you want to do that board work better? Do you want to grow that company's value? And once we get to this? These are the thresholds that we can remove. How do we get the whole 5 million? It is a pretty small country, after all. I myself run it with a messianic approach, in that I've founded, in this recent period, both Translink Vibecoding Society, where I myself serve as the messianic founder. Into these images, moods, and messianic beginnings, AI- -the future is going to be amazing, whether it's over there in the UFO corner, or in this dystopia corner. Thank you, and gentlemen. Thanks. As we noticed from this episode too, an explainer is always needed, a world explainer. Since you've watched this far, go ahead and check out- -here's our original episode from the Social Democrat side, as [unclear] would say. Thank you. Thanks\n"}