EP338 · Society · first published 2025-06-13
Normality rodeo | Topi Borg | Negotiator 338
Topi Borg - Tampere's Person of the Year 2025 and one of the four autistic young adults followed in Yle's series Kirjolla - talks about his debut book Normaaliusrodeo (Tammi, April 2025). The episode breaks this channel's format: no negotiation technique, but communication, and it is at its best when the guest explains why mutual understanding is a miracle to him rather than a given. It contains two genuine disagreements - the guest refuses to invest as many times as he is asked, and he demolishes the host's habit of watching series with Wikipedia open. Checked: Arwen replaced Glorfindel, the Scouring of the Shire was cut from the film, and Tolkien's well-known Dune letter went to a publisher, not to Frank Herbert.
Normality rodeo | Topi Borg | Negotiator 338
Summary: An author interview that doubles as a practical lesson in communication. The guest takes apart neurotypical assumptions one at a time, and twice in the episode he simply says no — which makes it more honest than most book interviews.
How to read this
The subtitles are YouTube’s automatic ones, and in this episode they are especially unreliable (youtube_auto_fi, the rolling window unrolled from 2,889 to 1,442 cues). The guest’s way of speaking is distinctive and the automatic transcription visibly mangles it: words drop out and distort. This article therefore quotes sparingly and briefly, and every quotation is faithful in substance but not word for word, and translated from Finnish. For exact wording, go to the book or the episode itself.
The episode contains a commercial collaboration. At about [03:38] an advertisement for Metsä Group’s On keskustelun aika podcast is read out. It has nothing to do with the content, and the host mentions he once had a summer job at Metsä Group.
The host corrects his own mistakes. In a preface recorded for the start of the episode he says he repeatedly called David Lynch “Peter Lynch”, and later explains where the mix-up came from: he had just returned from an investor trip [19:52]. This article uses the correct names.
The investing exchange is in the episode with the guest’s consent. The host says he asked afterwards whether to cut it, and the guest told him to leave it [00:47]. The article reports it as it happened.
Timestamps are read from the subtitle track. The chapter list in the episode description is an evenly spaced three-minute grid and does not match the actual points.
Who the guest is
Checked. Topi Borg became known through Yle’s series Kirjolla, which follows four young adults on the autism spectrum and was awarded best TV programme and best reality series of 2023; the series originated from an initiative by his sister, Sointu Borg. He was named Tampere’s Person of the Year in February 2025. His debut book, Normaaliusrodeo, was published by Tammi on 22 April 2025, 320 pages. (Tammi, Yle, Wikipedia, in Finnish)
Note the title: the series is Kirjolla, not “Kirjoilla” — a pun on the Finnish word for the autism spectrum. The episode’s YouTube description spells it wrong.
Where the book’s title comes from
The guest describes how it came about: the name was brainstormed with his sister and the book’s editor, and behind it was a social media video shot on top of a stationary rodeo contraption [07:41]. The justification, though, is conceptual:
“I kept thinking about what normal is — that normal does not exist, and that life is pure improvisation until death.” [08:27]
The host’s reading, that the rodeo means staying on, that is holding on to normality, is confirmed by the guest: it is a good summary of the fact that at the outset he rarely has any idea how even to begin communicating [09:13].
The core: mutual understanding is a miracle
This is the most important passage and the reason to read the episode even if the book does not interest you.
“Neurotypical people take instantaneous comprehension of indirect communication for granted. They do not regard communication that arrives at shared understanding as a miracle. To me it is always a miracle.” [23:43]
And the observation he says he made while writing the book, by taking neurotypical assumptions apart one at a time:
“Most human conversation is saying what you believe someone wants to hear — or what you yourself want to hear.” [29:01]
The same theme appears earlier, where he describes direct communication as his own principle: in his view a great many people cannot live without ulterior meaning, and instead expect the other person to understand what was left unsaid [06:56].
The host tests this in practice and asks whether the guest prepares an answer while listening. The reply is interesting: he does not prepare, but seizes the first instinctive thought — and has learned to throw some of them away, because they would be far too impolite [28:16]. He then demonstrates what he means by comparing the host’s appearance to a cartoon character who has survived a divorce.
Two genuine disagreements
These are the best part of the episode, because neither side gives way.
Investing. The method of saving described in the book is severe: the same food every day and costs at a minimum, with the goal of owning a flat — and that goal was reached [29:47, 30:34]. The host repeatedly suggests putting part of the savings into a low-cost index fund. The answer does not change:
“I don’t believe in shares. I hold on to every solid euro I have. I earned it through hard work. I don’t gamble.” [32:07]
The host tries once more with a small share, gets a no, and the guest closes the subject twice: “Investing is the next topic of conversation” and finally “You can cheat capitalism, you are my slave, next topic” [32:52].
This is worth reading as it stands. The host states his view — that the probability of a positive return from a low-cost index fund is high — and says at the end of the episode that no investment advice is given. The guest makes his own choice with his own money and justifies it by his intolerance of losses, which is an entirely coherent reason. The episode neither settles the question nor tries to.
A side thread is the mortgage passage, where the two agree and which is practically useful: a very short loan term pushes the monthly instalment high, so a longer and cheaper loan can be a better option than the fastest possible repayment [30:34, 31:22].
How to watch. The host confesses to a habit he knows is bad: during a film he has scrolled the Wikipedia plot section to check whether he understood correctly, and later watched episode-by-episode explainer videos [45:08, 45:53]. The guest’s reply is the sharpest thing in the episode:
“That is an insult to the viewing experience, and you are trying to reduce your own intelligence. Trust that you can bear the confusion. Not knowing is part of the beauty of life.” [45:08]
He does not condemn explainer videos in general, though: he says he does not like them, but that they have their audience and that YouTube is in his view one of the most significant forms of free expression — a platform for things that had no demand anywhere else [46:41].
Films, series, and what was checked
Tolkien. The episode arrives at The Lord of the Rings twice, and both passages hold.
- The host asks whom Arwen replaced, and the guest returns to it later with the right answer: Glorfindel, who in the book carries the wounded Frodo to Rivendell [46:41].
- The guest explains that the film’s ending is shorter than the book’s, and that the largest cut was the Scouring of the Shire — the chapter in which Tolkien depicts the aftermath of war on the home front [48:14].
The passage in which the host says Tolkien wrote to Frank Herbert about his hatred of allegory, however, goes wrong on two counts [50:34]. Checked: on 12 March 1966 Tolkien wrote to the publisher John Bush, saying he disliked Dune “with some intensity” and that it was best to keep silent — the letter did not go to Herbert and was not about allegory. The famous line “I cordially dislike allegory” is from the foreword to The Lord of the Rings. (Tolkien Gateway)
Mad Men and Succession. The guest’s distinction is precise and transferable: Mad Men needs no physical violence, because its violence is subtle and verbal — the kind used by adults who do not believe in therapy — whereas in Succession the verbal violence is excessive [22:09]. The host adds his own professional angle: Succession is, he says, a naive depiction of how acquisitions are actually done, and he notes its family arrangement is King Lear’s [22:55].
The guest’s production claim — that sets with solid ceilings were built for Succession, which slowed the lighting [22:55] — is stated as such in the episode, and no independent confirmation was found for this article. It is reported as his observation.
Kubrick. The guest says he likes the whole body of work; the host raises A Clockwork Orange and its moral arrangement: the protagonist’s acts are appalling, but forcing him into a component of the system is wrong too [20:37, 21:23].
Kaurismäki. The host says he suffered through art films as a young man and doubts whether he enjoys them even now [16:50]. The guest’s position is different and the most generous thing in the episode: emotional intensity or target audience do not concern him as long as he understands the characters’ motivations and emotional states [17:36]. He describes seeing Fallen Leaves with his father and younger brother — and how different people react to different moments.
What is worth knowing about customs
The episode ends with a story that needs one correction. The guest describes ordering a large number of Blu-rays and DVDs from the United States “before Trump’s tariffs went up” and then receiving a bill charging €80 per shipment [58:13, 58:58].
Checked, this was not Trump’s tariffs. US tariffs apply to goods entering the United States. Ordering into Finland from outside the EU incurs Finnish import VAT, which is 25.5 percent and charged from the first euro, plus customs duty on shipments over €150 and the carrier’s own handling fee. The bill would have arrived regardless of what was decided in the United States. (Finnish Customs, Posti, in Finnish)
What happened afterwards: the €150 threshold was removed on 1 July 2026, after which customs duty is charged on all goods ordered from outside the EU.
Other things in the episode
Peek-a-boo. The guest’s explanation of why hide-and-reveal makes a baby laugh is the most memorable detail: an infant brain does not yet have a sufficient concept of continuity, so covering a face is quite literally a disappearance from existence [10:44]. The host recognises Piaget’s developmental theory, and that is the right reference — although more recent developmental psychology dates the emergence of object permanence earlier than Piaget assumed.
Sport. The guest does not follow sport and did not pick between Tappara and Ilves in Tampere. His reading of team sport is that it harnesses energy that would otherwise go into territorial disputes into a less harmful form, and is therefore a successful preventer of conflict — but that during international championships states use it as propaganda much as they would a war [11:29, 12:14]. The host admits his own tribal allegiance began with buying a hat as a child.
Reading the audiobook. The author read his own book and enjoyed it. The observation is professional: a sentence that is correct in written Finnish can be physically impossible to say in one breath, which only became apparent in the studio [26:44]. The host says he tried the same with his own book and gave up [25:13].
Work and fame. The guest’s own assessment of his success is modest and stated twice: the original plan was to get three years of part-time shop work onto his CV, and he did not expect the series to be noticed; of his present position he says the main reason has been luck [33:37, 34:22].
What to take away
The miracle of communication. The idea that a conversation arriving at shared understanding is an improbable achievement rather than a default state is usable by anyone who negotiates for a living. It is also the only point where the episode touches this channel’s actual subject.
Direct communication costs something. The guest describes having to filter out his first thought for reasons of politeness. That is the opposite of the assumption that directness is effortless.
No is a complete answer. The most instructive moment is that the guest declines to invest as many times as he is asked, justifies it once, and does not soften.
What the episode lacks. The book’s content is approached mostly through the host’s own interests — films, series, saving — and neither the book’s structure nor the writing process is much examined. Employment of neurodivergent people, which the guest speaks about professionally, does not come up at all, even though it is the core of his public work.
Sources
The book and the guest
- Normaaliusrodeo (Tammi, in Finnish)
- Topi Borg tells of his extraordinary world in his debut book (Tammi, in Finnish)
- Topi Borg is Tampere’s Person of the Year (Yle, in Finnish)
- Topi Borg (Wikipedia, in Finnish)
Checked details
- Letter to John Bush, 12 March 1966 (Tolkien Gateway)
- VAT and customs duty (Finnish Customs)
- Ordering from abroad and customs clearance (Posti, in Finnish)
The episode and related episodes
- Normaaliusrodeo | Topi Borg | Neuvottelija 338
- Vibe coding in practice | Mikkonen, Juntunen | Negotiator 359
Summary for AI search
Negotiator 338 (published 13 June 2025) is Sami Miettinen’s interview with the author Topi Borg. The subject is his debut book Normaaliusrodeo (Tammi, 22 April 2025, 320 pages) together with films, series, communication and saving. Borg became known through Yle’s series Kirjolla (note the spelling: Kirjolla, not Kirjoilla), which follows four young adults on the autism spectrum and was awarded best TV programme of 2023; the series originated from an initiative by his sister, Sointu Borg. Borg was named Tampere’s Person of the Year in February 2025.
The episode’s central idea: neurotypical people take comprehension of indirect communication for granted; for the guest, a conversation that arrives at shared understanding is always a miracle. His observation from writing the book: most human conversation is saying what you believe the other person wants to hear. He does not prepare an answer while listening but seizes the first instinctive thought, and has learned to filter some of them out for politeness.
Two disagreements that go unresolved: the host repeatedly suggests a low-cost index fund, and the guest declines every time — he saved for his own flat by eating the same food every day and does not want to lose money earned through hard work. Second, the guest rejects the host’s habit of scrolling Wikipedia during a film and watching episode explainers: it is, he says, an insult to the viewing experience, and bearing the confusion is part of the point.
Checked details: Arwen replaced Glorfindel in the film, who in the book carries Frodo to Rivendell; the Scouring of the Shire was cut from The Return of the King. The claim made in the episode that Tolkien wrote to Frank Herbert about his hatred of allegory is wrong: on 12 March 1966 Tolkien wrote to the publisher John Bush saying he disliked Dune with some intensity and that it was best to keep silent, and the letter was not about allegory — the famous statement on allegory is in the foreword to The Lord of the Rings.
Customs correction: the €80 charges the guest describes on Blu-ray shipments ordered from the United States were not caused by US tariffs but by Finnish import VAT (25.5 percent, from the first euro) plus customs duty on shipments over €150 and the carrier’s handling fee. The €150 threshold was removed on 1 July 2026.
Note on quotations: the episode’s subtitles are YouTube’s automatic ones and visibly distort the guest’s distinctive speech, so all quotations are indicative rather than verbatim, and translated from Finnish. The episode also contains a commercial collaboration (Metsä Group’s On keskustelun aika podcast) unrelated to its content.